Bridging the Confidence Gap with Bena Stock

Bena Stock spent over 24 years as a litigator before turning her talents to counselling others. In this episode she draws upon her personal experience, sharing tools that new and aspiring lawyers can use to quiet anxiety, grow confidence, and build a happier and more successful practice. She also addresses common career saboteurs such as imposter syndrome, perfectionism (yes, it's a problem), and the paralysis resulting from fear of failure. You will also learn the significance of "cow paths" - curious? Tune in to find out!

Episode Notes:

- Bena Stock Counselling & Consulting: https://www.benastock.com/

- The Power of Believing That You Can Improve: https://www.ted.com/talks/carol_dweck_the_power_of_believing_that_you_can_improve

- Fake it Till You Make It: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVmMeMcGc0Y

- VIA Character Strengths Survey: https://www.viacharacter.org/ 

- Change Your Mindset, Change the Game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tqq66zwa7g 

- How to Make Stress Your Friend: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcGyVTAoXEU

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:03

Hi, it's Susan Van Dyke here, and I am joined by my colleague and collaborator, Johanna Mills. Hello, hello. Hello, hello. We are looking forward to welcoming our next guest, Bina Stock, who is a 20, was a 24-year litigator in Vancouver. We actually worked in the same law firm together many years ago. And she now has her counseling, masters of counseling, and she works with lawyers, helping them reduce their anxiety and increase their confidence in their practice. And she works with a variety of types of lawyers, and she is so she's full of wisdom. And I'm telling you, I think it's in her DNA to counsel lawyers. Wait till you hear her. She has tons of tips and tricks and step-by-step approaches to achieving success and managing the anxiety and increasing confidence.

SPEAKER_03 0:54

Yeah, and she really has that inside view, having been a lawyer herself. She uh talks the talk because she walked the walk. So I think she was a great person to help us understand what goes on in the minds, hearts and minds of law students and lawyers as they're trying to make their way.

SPEAKER_04 1:09

Yeah, that was well said. So much credibility. So, everyone, buckle up. You might want to rewind parts of this to make sure you don't miss a beat of being a stock. Enjoy. Welcome to the Lawyer Launcher Podcast. Hello, friends, I'm your host, Susan Van Dyke. If you're a law student or a new lawyer eager to launch a successful career, you're in the right place. Drawing on more than 25 years of experience, I'll demystify the business of law and help you understand just what it takes to succeed. With my co-host Johanna Mills, hello there. We'll empower you, help build confidence, and reduce anxiety. Our experts will share tips and advice, and I can't wait for you to hear from them. Now, let's dive in. It is so good to see you again, Vina. It was such an energized conversation with you a little while ago as we were talking about our law student course and what we're really hoping to do. And one of the things that is really fun is when I talk to people like you who really get it instantly and they really share my belief that if we can address confidence and anxiety issues in students and provide helpful tools and information, right, about our environment, that they will be so much more successful, but also a lot happier. And I think that when people are comfortable and happier, success will follow, right? That one follows the other. And I know that really resonated with you. And I know that you have lots of history even before you were counseling. It was like in your DNA to do this work, right? I love that.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Thank you. Yes, um, maybe it is. I don't know. But I know that um I wouldn't be able to do this work without all of the experience that I had as a practicing lawyer because um bringing that piece to the mix um allows for me to connect with people and to share some experiences. So, you know, not only did I practice as a litigator for 24 years, I'm married to a litigator. We raised two kids. So I've had to learn through trial and error um how to navigate some of these issues. And uh confidence is one that I found comes up again and again, not just for me as I was practicing, um, but also in the work that I do now as a counselor for lawyers.

SPEAKER_04 3:22

Can you recall back when you articled? Does any of this come forward for you still? Oh God, laughing because it sure does.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

You know, I was thinking in, you know, in in advance of our conversation, I was thinking, okay, what am I going to share that would resonate with the listeners? Um, and so confidence was really at the forefront of my mind. I was the first person to get a university degree in my family. Um, obviously the first person to go to law school. And I articled at a time when it was a really tough market. Um, I was the only one kept on. And I was absolutely convinced that it was just a matter of time before somebody would tap me on the shoulder and say, Oh, you know what? You're nice, but we made a mistake. Oh, you for trying hard, right? Um, and I think that that's something that comes up for so many people. And I think what ends up happening is we inadvertently sometimes sabotage ourselves. And so when I saw this coming up time and time again in practice um and through counseling, I actually wrote my master's thesis on basically the confidence gap. And it was focused particularly vis-a-vis women and how that negatively impacts the wage gap, the gender wage gap. But we know that what I just described that, oh, you made a mistake and you're gonna tap me on the shoulder, that sense of I don't belong here. It's applicable to all genders, it's not unique to women. So everyone struggles with it from time to time.

SPEAKER_04 4:54

So you're talking about the imposter syndrome, right? That we all, I think a lot, I shouldn't say all of us, but I think many of us have it at different times and different to different degrees through our career. It's probably most pronounced when we're stepping into a new role. As you say, when you're when you're new and you don't have the context, you're trying to find your way in the dark. Um, I know we've talked to a lot of students who feel like it's an opaque box. It's very difficult to penetrate what is the law firm environment. And I so feel for students and how difficult a transition that is, along with the expectations that they put on themselves and perhaps expect that others have of them. So the imposter syndrome, can you talk a little bit about what that looks like and how what are some things that people can do to try to overcome that?

SPEAKER_01 5:40

That's a really good question because the imposter syndrome, I mean, there's just so many definitions as to what it is, but in a nutshell, it's the belief, I think, it's the belief that um my accomplishments are not necessarily due to my abilities, but rather luck or maybe being in the right place at the right time. And so I never give credence to all of the things that I contribute to the equation. And you know what? Sometimes maybe you are lucky, sometimes maybe you are in the right place at the right time, but that doesn't mean that you're also capable. And one of the things that contributes to um maintaining the imposter syndrome or that sense that I don't belong, um, as well as eroding our self-confidence, is something that comes up in law very often, and that is perfectionism. So true. That expectation that um I need to do everything perfectly, and it's socially sanctioned by our profession, right? I mean, we can't submit a factum that's full of errors or submissions that are of low quality. Um, so it's a real hard place to be in. And what happens with some people, particularly when they're starting out, is they have these high expectations of themselves, expectations that quite often they self-impose. And they have a task to do. Maybe it's to draft a memo, you know, as a young lawyer, but it has to be perfect, and so we procrastinate because it's never the right time. I have to wait for the right time to write that memo. And maybe we become anxious and we postpone and we postpone, and then we become self-critical and we judge ourselves, and then that erodes our self-confidence and our self-esteem. And then the cycle just continues.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

It's very difficult to break.

SPEAKER_04 7:47

That that whole, I mean, just it almost makes my stomach start to cringe when you're talking about that. And it reminds me, I used to write long articles for the CBA, the Canadian Bar Association. They were back in the day when we used to write 3,000-word articles, it probably took me the better part of a week. And when I started writing these articles on law firm marketing, law firm management, I probably started, I don't know, 15 years ago. I had already been in the business for 10 years, to push the send button on what I thought was my final draft. I can tell you, I'm I'm so relating to what you're talking about because it was, even if I'd, you know, spent twice as much time on it as I needed to, and I was really had solid expertise in that area, it was so hard. And it was so enlightening and surprising that it was that hard. Because the audience, right? It's a very critical audience. And uh yeah, and interestingly, I never really got any blowback. I had tons of writing that's been published a lot. You have too, but I've never heard anybody say, You got the comma wrong, Susan, or you're wrong here, or you missed a point. Never heard it. So I love that example that you give too, about it's almost paralysis, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:58

That's essentially what can happen, yeah. And and it's so much motivated by a fear of failure, right? Like I felt that expression of you, you know, when you're talking about hitting sand, right? That that your stomach dropping and the fear of what are people gonna think, right? Um, because perfectionism is very much externalized. It's what will people think? And and Brittany Brown has this remarkable way of describing it. She says it's like a 20-ton shield that we carry around that we think protects us, because if we believe that we can work perfect and live perfect and act perfect, we can avoid or minimize, she says, blame, shame, and criticism. And I think that's true. But what ends up happening with that shield is we end up not allowing ourselves to be seen because we don't take risks, because we don't follow up on opportunities. We know that, um, and this is a this is a gender-related um issue. We know that when it comes to applying for jobs, women will um, in general, not always, but in general, wait until they meet all of the boxes. They're able to tick off absolutely every box before they put their name in the ring. Whereas men don't. Maybe they tick off a third or a half and then they put their name in the ring. And guess who gets the job? Right, right. So that can really be um a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way, and it can keep us from shining and it can hold us back. And you know, you asked about um what are some things that we can do to change. And I've got a couple of suggestions, but before I do, I I want to get a little um nerdy on you because I love science and I love evidence-based research, and I know our audience, you just mentioned, right? Our audience. Um I need to have something solid to persuade them that some of this is gonna work. So I want to share a study about what goes on in the brain of people who are perfectionistic, and full disclosure. I remember my PLTC instructor accusing me of being plu perfect. And I honestly was so misguided at the time, I thought that it was a compliment.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

I thought he was telling me I was going to be such a great lawyer. So you're a recovering perfectionist?

SPEAKER_04 11:22

Is that what we're yes? Hi, my name is Bina. I'm 99% perfect.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

Yeah. But but this this research is fascinating because it looked at, it took 75 people. I've got the study here somewhere, I want to make sure that I get it right. Um, and it it gave them a um a standardized test and it grouped those people into four different categories. And the first category were the folks who showed no perfectionistic tendencies whatsoever. The second group were people who showed externalistic perfectionism, meaning that they were motivated by what will people think. The third group were people who were internally motivated, intrinsically motivated. They really wanted to do a good job. They weren't so much focused on the what will people think. And the last group was a combination of the two, a combination of those who were externally and those who were internally motivated. And what the researchers did is they um put these people through a functional MRI. And a functional MRI, some you're nodding, so you you sounds like you know what it is. It's um it's a way that um it shows the blood flow to the brain. So when certain areas of the brain are active, there's more blood flow, and we know that the blood flow correlates with neural activity. So the premise is that we know that you are using a specific part of the brain when it starts to light up under this functional MRI. And so what they did was really nasty is they gave all these people um an assignment, a test, and they were doomed to fail. They were doomed to make mistakes. And when I first read about this study, I just like the hair on the back of my neck stood up because I was like, oh God, that's just so awful of them. How could they do that? But the results were fascinating. Let me tell you what happened. And I'm gonna read this to you because I don't, I want to make sure that uh that I get it right. Um for the participants who scored high in that personal uh motivated, the intrinsic motivated standard of perfectionism, there's an area in the brain called the anterior cingulate cortex, and it fired like crazy. That's the error processing area of your brain, and it became really reactive. And not only did it become really reactive, but the people actually slowed down, which meant they took time to reflect after they made a mistake so they could learn from their mistake and do better next time. This was also true for the fourth group who had the combination of the two internal and external motivated. The people who were motivated extrinsically, that area of the brain didn't light up, nor did they slow down. So when we're motivated by what will people think, we're gonna keep moving forward and we're never really going to take the time to sit back and reflect on what we can do better. And so one of the things I really encourage people to do to overcome perfectionism and to build confidence is to think about the distinction between perfectionism and excellence. Because I'm not saying hand in a lousy facum or a memo that's full of errors. Of course not, you're not going to keep your job. But what I'm saying is there's a really big difference between trying to be perfect based on what people think, and trying to do the best job that you can understanding the process and learning from the process.

SPEAKER_04 14:53

So you're going back to how are we driven, right? I think you're going back to what what's dry, keep make sure that what's driving you to complete this task is coming from the best place. Have I got that right?

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Coming from the best place and also also reflecting that you can learn from your mistakes. So one of the ways, you know, some some coaches will say if you want to overcome uh perfectionism, if you want to build your confidence, fail. Because we know actually from the research as well that nothing boosts confidence more than taking risk, especially when that risk involves failure. So fail, fail often, fail fast. That's how you learn, because you learn to recognize that that's part of life. I mean, we all have stories where we failed and we learn from them, hopefully. So it's about recognizing that piece.

SPEAKER_04 15:44

So, how do we so the environments that we work in, law firms, are not particularly hospitable to failure, especially, especially in the junior ranks. So, as, and I agree with everything you just said, it's so interesting and it's so very true that you fail up, you fail to succeed and move forward and advance. For those in firms, and I've talked to lots of my colleagues who are many of them are in the creative field, so they are working outside the confines of law. They're working in the marketing creative business development areas, right? So they have a, they don't have the playground um boundaries that lawyers do. Um, even they find it difficult to fail and take risks, which is how businesses advance, right? Um, so in the in the environment of a law firm for a junior associate or an articling student, how do they ensure it's not suicidal to fail? I mean, they need strong principles, strong mentors. They need to choose their firms carefully, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:48

Yeah. Um I'm gonna say career limiting instead of suicidal, just because it's a it's a hard word and it is something that we do struggle with there. Um there's only so much you can do, so only so much recognizance and homework you can do before you choose your firm. Um but once you're there, there are conversations you can have. And so when I'm speaking with senior counsel, I really encourage them to share with their students and their juniors their failures. And there are some law firms and some departments within law firms who actually open meetings with, you know, share a success and share something that you learn, share a failure to normalize it. And so if you're a student, you you obviously don't have control over that, but you can ask those questions. You can ask questions like, you know, can you tell me about one of your um most important learning experiences? Can you tell me what you learned from your first trial? I mean, I remember at my first trial cross-examining a witness and senior counsel who's now on the bench, so I won't mention his name, pulled on my robes. And I went, no further questions. We all learn things, right? And so those are the kind of stories that lawyers love to talk about themselves. So ask those kinds of questions. And then when you make a mistake, or you think you've made a mistake, be accountable right away. Because when I was in practice, if a junior or an assistant made a mistake, I want to know now where I've got time to fix it. I we can talk about why it happened and how we can prevent it from happening again in the future at a later date, but I would rather know as soon as possible because otherwise it's going to snowball and then it may not be reparable, right? So tell people right away when you've made a mistake and be honest about it, and then take ownership and try to engage in the process of how to fix it.

SPEAKER_04 18:40

And then brave conversation. Yeah, no kidding. And that's character building to walk into a partner's office or another associate's office and own your mistake. I agree wholeheartedly with you, but boy, it does take a lot of courage. But is there not anything better to do than to own your mistake, apologize and be eager to be part of the solution than any other approach? I mean, we spoke, we we all speak from a place of wisdom and having made lots of mistakes and having handled them, speaking for myself, badly and and well and all things in between. But if you, my kids, I'll tell them if you walk into a room and own it, you take the sting out of the argument right away. Now I'm on your team. Now I want to help resolve it. That's how I that's my impression, right? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

And another thing that can help, another tool that people can think about is whether they have what's called a fixed mindset or a growth mindset. And if you want to learn more about this, anybody who's listening, there's a TED talk by Carol Deweick. This is her work. It's D W E C K, I think is the way you spell her last name. And she's a psychologist who's who uh created this concept. And a fixed mindset is somebody who believes that you know, in life, you're given sort of a capacity of um ability to, you know, um connect with people of intelligence, of personality, whatever the case may be. So if you believe that every encounter is your one shot to make an impression, that can create anxiety. That can really erode your self-confidence. A growth mindset, however, on the is about making mistakes, right? It's about what we've talked about already. It it connects to that research I talked about in terms of what happens in the brain when people who are intrinsically motivated versus extrinsically motivated make mistakes. So the growth mindset believes that, yeah, I made a mistake and I'm gonna learn from this. How can I do this better? And we know as well that you create more growth when you build on areas where you already have certain strengths. And so recognizing A, where your strengths are, and B, where you can improve is going to be helpful.

SPEAKER_04 20:56

So just from the get-go, knowing that you should try to adopt the growth mindset, because I think we know that early on in your career, once you start to develop good habits it early on, the earlier the better. I know that even just from you know building a practice, good habits are going to have compound interest in the long run and you're going to be far more successful, right? Even small things. So that growth mindset right at the beginning, trying everything you can, all the tricks in the book to have that mindset, even if you're faking it, right? To have that growth mindset. But I think a lot of people might have to quiet the anxiety in order to really move into that mindset with any authenticity. So, how do you quiet the anxiety before they pass through that threshold?

SPEAKER_01 21:47

You got any thoughts, tricks? Yeah, I've got lots of thoughts. Um but before I share those, because you made me think of something, there's another TED Talk, and I don't know if you could connect these TED Talk references between your podcast or somewhere. Um Amy Cuddy, I think she's got one of the top three TED Talks of all time. She's a psychologist who talks about the fake it till you make it because it actually works. And I'm not gonna steal her thunder, but you gotta watch it, especially for those of you who want to become litigators. I think it makes a huge difference. Amy Cutter. Amy Cuddy, C U D D Y.

SPEAKER_04 22:20

C-U-D-D-Y. Okay, we'll link that below. Great.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

I'm pretty sure that's how you spell it.

SPEAKER_04 22:23

Okay, we'll find it if it's not. Thanks, Bina.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

So how can you manage the anxiety? And I I gave you um sort of a preview that I was going to talk about cow paths when we were going to talk about this topic, and I didn't explain what that meant. So when I teach different strategies, um, what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to disrupt patterns if we think of it at a higher level, because we all have patterns of behavior. We've all got go-to ways of doing things, go-to ways of responding when situations happen. And change requires us to stop, take a moment, and choose a different path. So cow paths come in because I like to add some humor to this because I'm hoping it's going to uh break that pattern. Um, if you've ever been to a farm or pasture, you've seen cow paths. You're both nodding, right? And and they usually take the cows from you know the pasture to food or shelter or water or whatnot. And if there's a bunch of trees, let's say an obstacle in their path, what do they do? They go around. Of course they go around. Let's say I'm a really nice farmer, um, and I remove all of those trees, so that is now a really direct path for those cows to get from the pasture to the barn. What do you think they do?

SPEAKER_04 23:48

Sorry, I was just hearing a cough in the background. What do I think?

SPEAKER_01 23:51

I'm putting you on the spot.

SPEAKER_04 23:52

Yeah, no, that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

I was just they they go around. They go around, yeah. They take the old, well-worn path, even if there's a more direct route that is going to benefit them. And that's what we all do. We all have our own go-to ways of responding when stress and anxiety hits. And so, what I'm going to be asking people to think about doing is number one, paying attention to your cow paths. Am I thinking in a way that is helpful for me or not helpful for me? And we all have, we call them cognitive distortions or unhelpful thinking styles and psychology. We all have our go-to ways, right? Catastrophizing. Oh my God, that was awful. Can you believe she said that? That was outrageous, right? Yeah. Or how about the the the junior who receives um an associate review, and there are four amazing things that they did. One area for improvement. What are they going to focus on?

SPEAKER_04 24:53

The one area for improvement. It's like the toothache, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

Absolutely. And so the the story I can share from from one of my experiences, I was maybe a mid-level associate, and I remember coming back from chambers one day from something that I thought should have been a slam dunk. Obviously, you know by my intro that I lost. Um, and so I came back and I was not a happy camper. I was probably sitting there with smoke coming out of my ears in my office. And senior counsel came and sat down and said, So, you want to tell me what's going on? And I just told the story and he listened. And then he looked at me and he said, You know, in law, sometimes we lose the ones we should win, and we win the ones we should lose. And when he said that, I remembered all the times where I was practically throwing my materials into my briefcase to run out of that courthouse as fast as I possibly could before the judge or master changed their mind because I she has won something, but I'd forgotten, right? So that's another thing we really do is we discount the positive, we focus only on the negative. Because we're perfectionists. Because we're perfectionists. So there's a way of changing your thinking with cognitive behavior therapy that that tells you to pause when you have that automatic reaction to a situation. And then the next step of cognitive behavior therapy is to ask yourself, what am I thinking? Am I beating myself up? Am I thinking, oh my God, I'm gonna get fired, or I'm not gonna get kept on? Is this thought helpful? Is it unhelpful?

SPEAKER_00 26:31

Where's the evidence that supports that thought?

SPEAKER_04 26:35

So, to put this in the context for a law student who's facing articles which might be in three weeks, three months, next year, they could build up quite a head of steam, um, sabotaging themselves by thinking about all the things that could go wrong, all the things that they don't know, all the things they've heard, on and on. Like we could make up the three of us could make up a long list of all the things that they could be concerning themselves with. So as they are approaching articles, isn't it so important to take what you've just stated, Bina, in the context of a student, the kinds of things that they should tell themselves. So the tape that they should run, I mean, you're the counselor, not me, but I would think that the tape that they should run might be something like, I'm looking forward to learning. I need to prepare myself for mistakes. I need to find my tribe inside the firm. I need to find my safe. I used to call it a stupid question person, even though there's no stupid questions, but you know what I mean? I mean, I had a student one ask once ask me 20 years ago, can I eat a banana at my desk? You know, so I guess I was her stupid question person at the at that moment. But not that that's a stupid question, because that was true for her, right? So the tape that they're running in their minds, regardless if it's three weeks or a year from now that they step into that articling position, right? Is have I got that right, Bino? Should they replace the tape?

SPEAKER_01 28:06

That's one of the really important strategies to do, because one thing I don't ask clients is so what's the worst that could happen?

SPEAKER_00 28:13

Because they've already thought about it. They can tell you they have it in writing.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

And and especially, and I don't have the answer to this. So the chicken and egg answer, whether um people who have a really high negativity bias are drawn to law or whether we learn it, but we certainly become really good at raising our negativity bias in law, and that is finding fault, that is thinking of the worst case scenario, and we get rewarded for that. So we do that naturally. So it's sometimes a really difficult thing to pay attention to your cow paths when you start going there. So there's a couple of practical tips. So sometimes I ask students or young lawyers, have you done something outside of law? Like, did you play sports when you were growing up, right? Um, or music when you were growing up. So, for instance, um, I did a lot of martial arts um in the past, and visualization is hugely important. So, what I would do is I would visualize if I had a board break to do, I would visualize myself going through the board. I have a daughter who ski raced nationally, and she would sit, she and her teammates would sit at the top of the run, and you could see them, their eyes would be closed and their bodies would be imagining okay, I'm going over this roller, I'm gonna take this gate here. So, visualize going into a situation where you anticipate you're gonna need to really bolster your self-confidence. Imagine what that's gonna look like. What's that, what that's gonna feel like? That can be really helpful. Another thing that I really encourage people to do, um, and I wish I had known about this when I was a junior, um, two things. One is to celebrate your successes. So, this is another thing to counteract the negativity bias. This works with neuroplasticity, and celebrating your successes means you start to spend more time thinking about the good things that you did instead of beating yourself up about the bad things, right? And I suggest you do it once a day at the end of the day, and it doesn't have to be exclusively business related, it can be personal as well. So ask yourself what's one thing I did well today and why? And if you can, write it down. Here's the thing, we've all heard a lot about gratitude lists, right? During the pandemic, keep a gratitude list, and it's great, gratitude lists are really helpful, but gratitude lists, according to the research, don't boost your confidence. Whereas recording your successes, according to the research, not only boosts your confidence, but it boosts your engagement, meaning you're more likely to show up and be involved in what you're doing.

SPEAKER_04 30:51

So things like you get an email from somebody who's grateful who says something nice about something that you did in the work context, probably more likely than not, stick it into a kudos folder. That was number two. Oh, I'm sorry, I'm stealing your no, no, no, we're on the same page. We're on the same page.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

That's why we work well together.

SPEAKER_04 31:08

Yes, I love that. Go on, please go on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

No, that was exactly what I was gonna say was number two is as soon as you can create a folder, whether it's electronic or whether it's a hard copy, where you start to compile all of the kudos that you've received, because there's gonna be days in your practice, you're gonna have bad days. You may have more bad days than good days sometimes. And it's gonna be helpful for you to go to that kudos folder and remind yourself, I got this.

SPEAKER_02 31:37

Yeah.

unknown 31:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:38

It also can help you um get self-awareness on what you're really, really especially good at.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

Maybe you start to see some themes. I love that you brought that up because one of the notes that I wanted to make sure that I remembered to mention um there's a strength assessment that you can do. It's free, scientifically validated online. It's the VIA Values in Action Institute. And you can go and you can take your strength assessment. And this assessment is really valuable because it doesn't measure what you'd like to be like, it measures the strengths that show up in your life right now and how you can build on those. So that would be a really helpful tool that that your students might benefit from.

SPEAKER_04 32:20

Because it's better to build on our strengths and manage our weaknesses or challenges, right? We're gonna go further. Building on our strengths. Yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

And then also be aware of okay, here are areas where perhaps I can improve.

SPEAKER_04 32:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

And make a difference.

SPEAKER_04 32:36

Sure. What do you think of a buddy system where you have somebody who is you have an agreement amongst colleagues, your tribe, I like to call them, who if you see something great and and I'm worthy of kudos, you shout it out and we support each other in that way in a really authentic, real way, so that we're not only being our own champions, but we're um we are um getting others to support each other as well. Because sometimes it's easier for me to say, Bina's fabulous, she's the one. You need a counselor, she is the one. It's easier for me to say that than for you to say that about yourself, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:16

Yeah, I'm working on that for sure. Um, I think that's a brilliant idea. I really encourage people to do that. If you've got a tribe that helps support you, by all means do that. Um, and and that sort of segues into something else that we were going to talk about, and that was self-promotion. I mean, you you helped me, you were invaluable in helping me have the confidence to create a website that I created for which I'm very, very grateful. Um, but all too often we put our head down and we work away and we hope that somebody is gonna notice how hard we're working. And and hard work should get noticed. But here's the thing, especially for students and those starting off in law that may not be at the forefront of their minds, the senior lawyers you're working with, the senior associates, they're chock a block busy.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

Yeah, they're not watching what you're doing and really not because they're bad people, they're just they've got their own stuff that they've responsible for.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

And so it's so important for us to let people know when we've done a good job. In the research, we call this the tiara syndrome, that we tend to work really hard in hopes that somebody's going to notice and put a tiara notice us and put a tiara on our head and say, Congratulations.

SPEAKER_04 34:37

I love the visual. I love that. That doesn't that doesn't happen. Oh, I just love that comment comment, Bina, because I can tell you it working inside firms for as many years as I have, you realize that that is so true, that it's almost like these collections of offices with people drilling into their files, heads are down, that they don't know that across the way you've had a huge win or you know, any number of things to celebrate. People don't know. And and it's so common. Yeah, it's one of the challenges we have actually in communication inside a law firm is making sure that we're all connected and celebrating each other. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

Right. Yeah and what a wonderful culture that builds.

SPEAKER_04 35:20

Yeah, no kidding. So you've given us three three or four strategies there. Anything else on that, Bina?

SPEAKER_01 35:28

Oh um positive mind talk, like positive self-talk is what I want to say, right? So that's what you were talking about earlier, right? And we were talking about the body language and and boosting our confidence by chatting ourselves up, right? I I have a saying that I would say to myself in my mind each time I would stand up, if I was standing up in chambers and and you know, it came from a physical activity that I did training as a as a kid. And so sometimes I ask people, you know, think about if you were a soccer player and you were taking, you know, a kick, a goal kick. Is there something that you said to yourself, right? Or if you were a goalie, is there something that you said to yourself? Bring that into your practice. Why? Because you know it already works.

SPEAKER_04 36:15

And maybe there's something that they say to themselves before an exam, something that they can take from their school experience that's been helpful. Right? Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

There's two amazing TED talks that um some people have described as game-changing that really shift your mindset about stress and teach you how to harness what's happening to your body physically. One is by Alia Crumb, Dr. Alia Crumb, C-R-U-M, and the other is Dr. Kelly McGonagall, spelt like the professor at Hogwarts. Um, and they're both phenomenal and definitely must-watches before any stressful event.

SPEAKER_04 36:59

Oh, good tips, Bina. Oh my gosh, we're like getting the goods here. This is all golden. Okay, I want to make sure I have time to ask you about how to ask for what we need or want. Because I think I'm gonna I'm gonna make a general statement that might be harder for women than men. Um, speaking from my own experience and from what I've observed from others along gender lines, it's not easy. Um, what are your thoughts on that? How how do you I mean, we've talked a little bit in the context of failure, making it safe as much as you can to take risks, smart risks. But how do you get you know further and ask for what you want?

SPEAKER_01 37:42

Your anecdotal and personal observations are borne out by the research. There's a penalty that women actually pay sometimes when they ask for what they want, um especially in professional context. Um, and the penalty is often social. So there's some judgment. And so for women, when we want to ask for what we want, we need to be particularly, I think, particularly mindful about that piece as well. And you see the reverse that shows up, and this applies to the confidence, right? So great job, Susan. You did a great job on that marketing proposal. Oh, I couldn't have done it without my team. So women are very quick to minimize their contributions and raise up the contributions of others, which is great, except it comes at a price. So um, what I wanted to talk about here is the reality that your situation is more often than not more flexible than you think. And one thing I used to say when I was practicing is that you don't get what you don't ask for, or in other words, if you don't ask, the answer is already no. And no one says no to us no to us more than ourselves. So if you're going to ask about a couple of tips for you, number one, be really clear on what you're asking for and why it's important to you. Make sure it's in alignment with your values, that this is something that means a lot to you, and explain why it means a lot to you. And when you're being clear about your ask, also think about who you're gonna ask and when you're gonna ask, because timing makes a difference.

SPEAKER_04 39:41

So, can I can I put a practical, can we lay a practical example? I I I so appreciate these tips that you're providing. So I'm gonna lay a practical example on top of that. And my practical example might be I've come in for my articles, I have a principal assigned to me, and I've tried to work with that principle, but for some reason we're not connecting. Either schedules are off, or I'm it's just not gelling. And I can see this going not well over time, and I would really like to make a change. Right? So there's something very specific there. They got to figure out who to ask. There's maybe a student coordinator in the firm or some, you know, the professional development person. So that might be the person to ask, right? Find your opportunity. So when is when when might that person have time to meet with you and hear you out? But I think the other thing you're saying that's really important to this is to know. I think you said to know why. Is that what you said? To to so it might be it might be a purely practical thing. This person is in trial at four weeks at a time, and I just simply can't get time to sit with them and have in-person mentorship or what have you. Um, so have I got that right, Beanis? So that would be a practical example of what might occur.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

Yeah, and and also being when what the why also connects to what you're hoping to learn, right? So if you're not able to connect with this individual for one reason or another, and it's not going to be able to meet the needs in terms of what you know, the expectations are, what you're gonna get out of the relationship, you can bring that into it as well. You have to be really careful because that's a really sensitive conversation, because there are some people who are mentors who believe that they're excellent mentors, and they've got opportunities for improvement, right? Um, and as a junior, you don't, as the article student, you just don't have the power. And so there's a sort of a formula that I suggest people follow when they have diff when they have to have difficult conversations and they want to try to remove the judgment. And it goes like this the first is the observation, and that's just the fact, like the facts. So, you know, I I've tried to connect to this person X number of times, no judgment, right? Yeah, the next is what your thoughts are about that. So, my thoughts are, you know, maybe she's she's really, really busy, and I know she has very good intentions, but she's just never able to find the time because of her calendar.

unknown 42:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

The next step is the feelings. How do I feel about that? I'm I'm kind of afraid I'm missing out on some opportunities, kind of afraid, or fill in the blank, whatever your feeling is. And then the last piece that connects to the ask that people often leave out is the need. What do I need? So maybe I need um, you know, whatever that need might be in the situation, maybe I need to try working with um a different um principal, or maybe I need to have a sit-down in a conversation with this principal and see how we can make it work, right? What if I become more proactive? Will that be helpful?

SPEAKER_04 42:54

Right. And maybe that this conversation is also exploring. What do you think if I went to my principal and invited a conversation about scheduling, how to how to, you know, uh make time for each other and how important it is to me and how eager I am to spend time learning from that person. What do you think about that? I mean, that could also be an exploratory conversation, because the reality is if it if you try everything and another month passes and they've missed out on all that time for a month, ideally you want to come back to that professional development person, say, I've tried this back to your non-judgment. I've tried this, that, and the other, and I'm not having any success. Do you think it's time for me to make a change if it's possible? Right?

SPEAKER_01 43:37

Yeah, yeah. And you raised a really good point is that tying the knot and closing the loop, right? How long are we going to let this go for? Or how long can we try this for? Right. Because if you're proposing something that maybe is a little outside the box, quite often people are more receptive to it if you say, can we try this on for six months or four months? And then we'll we'll circle back with one. Another and see if it we're meeting, you know, this new arrangement meets our needs and if we need to make some tweaks or we need to go back to the way it was.

SPEAKER_04 44:07

Right.

unknown 44:08

Right.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

Quite often once you get the ball rolling, right?

SPEAKER_04 44:11

It goes in the right direction. And I want to bring forward something you mentioned earlier because I think it ties into this, that people aren't always paying attention to what's going on. So a month could go by and people in the firm don't know that you have not yet connected with your principal. People are, you know, not just the lawyers who are very busy, all the professionals in the firm are very busy and not always necessarily watching for all the detail of each day or week that goes by. So don't hesitate to come in and be very specific about what's happened because they probably don't know.

SPEAKER_01 44:41

Absolutely. And and sometimes the the negative self-talk comes in in those examples where people um walk away thinking, oh, you know, they can't make time for me. That means they don't like me. That's right. That means I don't belong here.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

Oh, being that's no, it just means they don't have time.

SPEAKER_01 44:56

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

So say, hey, is it okay if I check in with your assistant and you know we can check in your calendar and schedule something in.

SPEAKER_01 45:05

But don't automatically conclude that it's because you don't belong and they don't like you.

SPEAKER_04 45:11

100%. 100%. Well, Bina, this has just been fantastic. I could sit here and talk to you for another hour, truly. I mean, the stuff just pours out of you your resources, your stories, your tips. I want to um mention your website address, beanastalk.com.com. I always have to hesitate and say that. Beanastalk.com. We'll put a link in the materials here to your website. This has been so fantastic. And I just, I think it's in your DNA. And I'm so glad that you know you you went through your law practice for so many years, and now we all get the benefit of you as a counselor, reflecting back on your own experiences and the gifts that you have. So I know I'm very grateful to call you a friend and to have you to call on to share your wisdom with us. So, Bina, thank you so much. I know our students and and associates and anyone listening is gonna, they're gonna take away nuggets for sure. And I love that you've given us all homework. So I think we have three or four different TED talks and books and different things. So we'll post all those links. Uh, we'll find them and post them and uh and we'll get busy because I think this is really worthy work. And I love the idea of starting these good habits early, being really aware, self-aware, starting with the growth mindset, um, and taking initiative, you know, looking, making sure you don't fall into any of those traps and just continuing to grow. And I'm gonna say, as the host of this show, if you get into any um situation where you need a counselor, Beena's Beena is obviously clearly the one that uh you should consider. So thank you, Beena, so very much for taking the time with us.

SPEAKER_01 46:52

Thank you so much for inviting me. This was so fun. It went by so quickly. Um, and it was an honor to talk to you about this important uh subject.

SPEAKER_04 47:01

Thanks again, Beena. You're welcome. Stay tuned for our lawyer launcher debrief. I so enjoyed that conversation. Yeah, and I'm serious. I could have talked to her for another hour or more. And I probably have. We've probably indulged in chatting about this topic when we have been speaking on other matters before. Um, I just think she's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 47:21

Yeah, one of the things I really liked is how she used evidence-based research to support her arguments. So not only did she have that kind of uh wisdom, but it was backed up by science. Um, so that's really helpful because lawyers, of course, are a very analytical bunch and very can be very wary of things that are a bit woo, you know, bit woo-woo. Woo-woo, a bit woo-hoo. So I thought that was a nice balance. And she gave some really great tips for you know podcasts to check out. One thing that she, when she was talking about risk taking, that I think about a lot is we worry sometimes about risk and what we might lose or how things could go wrong, but we don't often think about the um the risk of doing nothing. What happens if you don't take a risk? What is the cost to that over time? So if you aren't putting yourself forward and you're not taking chances and you're not progressing, you risk stagnation. And there is not only an emotional and psychological cost, but there's a financial cost to that. And particularly as she was saying, for women who tend not to be as assertive about pushing themselves forward if they don't feel fully ready. Um, that I, you know, I think there's a real cost. So when we're thinking about risk, we have to think about the risk of taking action and the risk also of inaction.

SPEAKER_04 48:34

So kind of the opportunity cost of not taking the risk, but to take that even further, and I wish Bina was with us to chime in on this because she'd probably have a lot to say about this too, is what is the upside? What is the like what if it goes really well? Yeah. Like not just the downside, but what if what if a risk and innovation goes really well? And uh what you can achieve with that and the profile you can raise for yourself and the the benefits to your client or your firm. There's a huge upside as well.

SPEAKER_03 49:02

And the other thing that she said that I really liked is she talked about how people aren't aren't really thinking about you as much as you're thinking about you. So sometimes we rush to judgment and we assume that somebody's action or inaction means something about us. Often they're just they're struggling with their own demands and issues. It has nothing to do with us. And, you know, sometimes people do worry about how they're perceived by others or what will others think, or what did they think of this or that. And whenever I, you know, say something dumb in a meeting, which occasionally happens, or you know, just make a misstep here or there, a typo or whatever it is, I just remind myself people might have a fleeting moment of Schadenfreud, think, you know, or not, and then move on to the other things. And so I just try to shake it off and not worry so much what others think. And I feel like that has really helped that that skill that I've developed to just not just don't worry about it so much, and just assume that people aren't thinking about it. It's really allowed me to push myself and sometimes make those little mistakes and just keep going. And eventually no one even remembers those mistakes, and there you are, you know.

SPEAKER_04 50:08

I think that's true. And I think we're our hardest critics of ourselves. I think that's true, even in the context of working in a law firm. We're going to be hardest on ourselves than anyone else is going to be on us. Um, and I also really believe in shrinking the recovery time between a mistake and feeling good about yourself. And I think when we start to make mistakes early on in our career, you take it home, you're talking to your partner about it, you're calling your mom, you're calling people, you're living with it all weekend, you're moping around, all that, you know, and hopefully over time you go, yep, that wasn't good. That I should, I should have known better. You learn from it, you have that growth mindset that Bina was talking about, which I think is really helpful, and um, and shrink that recovery time.

SPEAKER_03 50:56

And I think experience helps with that because I know in my younger years when something went wrong or something embarrassing happened, and you get that gut feeling, like a sick, almost like your body knows it before your mind does, that something has happened that's not good. I used to feel like my world has kind of changed now. And then eventually one day I looked around and said, Oh, actually, I'm back to normal. And so now that I've been through that a few times, and every once in a while it still happens, I have that feeling and I say to myself, this will pass. So you're gonna feel it. Maybe it's gonna be a couple of days, it's gonna be in your body, it's gonna come into your dreams, it's gonna be there, but you know that this will eventually not matter. And it always doesn't matter eventually. So there's a little bit of life experience that can help you weather those minor humiliations and embarrassments or missteps that do happen.

SPEAKER_04 51:43

It's true. And they will come. And it's almost like if you expect them, maybe it's a little bit easier to accept them when they happen because you've been expecting them. Not that you should look for them and create mistakes, of course, but when they happen, you know, yep, this is normal. In fact, I remember my mentor, um, his name is Peter, um, from many years ago coming to me and saying, Oh, yeah, that happens. Yeah. He said, Yeah, that happens. And it was so comforting to know that, you know, the mistake that I had made had had he had made himself as well. And he normalized it. And that was enormously helpful.

SPEAKER_02 52:18

You know, we're so sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 52:20

There just were so many nuggets, but I want to hear your other your other comment.

SPEAKER_03 52:23

Well, another trick that I use sometimes when I'm feeling intimidated, and I think about law students coming into a firm for the first time, and they're intimidated, I'm sure, by not only the other lawyers, but even everybody in the firm who seems to know what they're doing. Um, you know, a lot of times you'll be in a firm where there are people in support positions, paralegals, legal assistants who are very experienced. And I think those people can be intimidating as well. It's not just the other lawyers. Um, what I sometimes do is I try to imagine that I'm meeting them in a different context. So let's imagine I met them at a party or I helped them on the street because they dropped their groceries or something. And the type of interact, human positive interaction we would have when they're, you know, when we're not in this professional setting. And I try to remember that that is that person, this professional veneer, it's what you do in the office and you have to do that, but it's not the whole story of who they are. They have vulnerabilities, they have a, you know, it helps me see the whole person rather than just this monolith of a person who might judge me and who has control over my future.

SPEAKER_02 53:21

Right.

SPEAKER_03 53:22

And that helps me relax a little bit with them and and and often if I'm more relaxed, they're more relaxed. And then we can maybe find a little bit of a personal connection as long as it's, you know, still that professional context. Um, so I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 53:36

Sometimes finding that personal connection, one of the best tips. I don't know if I if I developed this myself or I heard it from somebody, I'd love to give credit for wherever credit's due. One of the tips to find that personal connection is when you walk into an office, and we're talking in 2022. So hopefully, you know, so we'll be in each other's offices. When you walk into somebody's office or their workspace, looking at a photo, looking at artifacts, looking sometimes people will have a sporting goods on the floor or a special baseball on a shelf, or certainly family photos, and taking those cues, those visual cues, and oh, I'm a golfer. Have you been go? Have you been golfing yet this year? Or oh, I see you have a family. Are they, you know, are you guys going on holiday for spring break? Keying, and it is exactly what you're talking about, Johanna, where the work kind of disappears, and now you're normalizing this conversation and you're leveling the playing field and you're talking human to human.

SPEAKER_03 54:34

Yeah.

unknown 54:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:35

Spend a few minutes just kind of breaking that ice. Occasionally you'll have somebody who doesn't want to do that, and you'll know when that happens. They don't want to make small talk, and then you quickly abandon that and you go right into business. Go into business. Most people are happy to have a little chit-chat for a couple minutes.

SPEAKER_04 54:50

Yeah, that's true. Most people make time for that. You gotta what you gotta watch your visual cues, though, as you say. Sometimes people are very busy and they can get irritated if that goes on too long. So I think you gotta really pay attention to that.

SPEAKER_03 55:02

The other thing I wanted to mention, sorry, is about what she one of uh Bina's points was she really talked about under before you are approaching a situation that's problematic, really understanding where you're you're coming from, taking some time to really reflect on how what is happening is not aligning with your values and why. So that when you're bringing up a problem, let's say, or something, a challenge, um, you can come you can really speak, you know, they'd say it in therapy, like use I words like I rather than saying you do this, you should say I feel this. So similarly, let's not accuse this other person of not having time for me. Let's say, here's the facts, here's why it's, you know, what fears this brings up in me, concerns that I have about my opportunities. And I really liked the way she framed that and the way she had, you know, four sort of steps you could almost take and think it through before you even set up that meeting or that call. That's a really useful tip. I'm gonna take that with me.

SPEAKER_04 55:57

And that's why I think this podcast to be able to rewind and replay and take notes almost. I always feel like you take notes while people are talking. So that in your phone, um, you could have a little folder beside your kudos folder, but another folder of little tools and tricks. Yeah. And little beanut isms, right? You could have a little beanut isms folder where all these little tools and tricks and steps that she shared so that you can start to use those as habits early on. I think that would be really useful.

SPEAKER_03 56:26

I literally have a kudos folder. That was a coincidence. I was gonna bring that up, but I I started that for myself because I thought this too, this I every time once a while I get a great compliment early on, and I thought too good to delete.

SPEAKER_04 56:38

Too good to delete.

SPEAKER_03 56:44

It fortifies you for when you have those missed ups or get something wrong, or somebody, maybe you didn't even get anything wrong, but someone's grouchy or whatever, and then you can kind of balance it out.

SPEAKER_04 56:53

We very much work in a world, the notion of no news is good news was something that was expressed to me probably within my first month of landing in my first law firm. And I heard that very statement recently, and it may be true, but I think a little bit of good news goes a very long way. And even if we have to take it out of a folder and visit it from you know something that somebody shared with us, regardless of who it is in the firm, a partner, a staff member, whoever it is, if somebody's observing something positive in you, I believe what they tell you. Yeah, believe it. Yeah, believe them. Yeah, agreed.

SPEAKER_03 57:29

All right, well, I'll see you at the next podcast. This is great.

SPEAKER_04 57:33

Looking forward to it. All right, thanks for joining me, Johanna. Take care.

SPEAKER_03 57:37

Bye.