The Rainmaker Roadmap with Kimberly Rice

Kimberly Rice joins us to discuss how law students and new lawyers can learn how to become firm rainmakers. Legal competence is the price of admission to law firms these days. To succeed you must set yourself apart, and Kimberly has amazing tips to get you started. Takeaways from this episode include:

- Understand the governance & power structure of your new firm and befriend the power players

- Visibility matters. Seek out opportunities to be seen by those in power, push past self-doubt, and crash the party - don't wait to be invited!

- Relationships and your internal will be your key to success - and this means all law firm staff, not just other lawyers. 

- Develop a marketing mindset and a "servant's heart" - what do we mean? You will have to tune in! 

With decades of law firm experience, Kimberly Rice is a Chief Changemaker at CHANGEMAKERS, a business accelerator program specially designed to educate, empower and equip women professionals to create the careers of their dreams by charting their own course. She has successfully coached and trained thousands of women professionals to navigate the landmines that stand between them and their perceived obstacles to a more prosperous, fulfilling career and life.

Episode Notes:

 - Rainmaker Roadmap: A Step-by-Step Guide to Building a Prosperous Business https://www.amazon.ca/Rainmaker-Roadmap-Step-Step-Prosperous/dp/1942489374

- CHANGEMAKERS: https://werchangemakers.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:04

So Kimberly Rice is a fabulous Southern gal who's been in the trenches for I think it's I think she said 30 some years. She has seen it all. She's very practical and a straight shooter on what needs to get done and kind of fearless too in her own approach and in her advice to others. She also wrote the book and it's called Rainmaker Roadmap: A Step-by-Step Guide to Building a Prosperous Business. And I think that's a book that everybody should pick up and whip through at one time or another.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Yeah, she knows what she's talking about.

SPEAKER_02 0:33

She sure does. Enjoy. Welcome to the Lawyer Launcher Podcast. Hello, friends. I'm your host, Susan Van Dyke. If you're a law student or a new lawyer eager to launch a successful career, you're in the right place. Drawing on more than 25 years of experience, I'll demystify the business of law and help you understand just what it takes to succeed. With my co-host Johanna Mills, hello there. We'll empower you, help build confidence, and reduce anxiety. Our experts will share tips and advice, and I can't wait for you to hear from them. Now, let's dive in. Kimberly, you are the wealth of information. I know we're going to hit like just the tip of the tip of the iceberg, like I said to you a minute ago. Let's get right into it. And let me just ask you for those students who are entering into their first year as associates, or in our case in Canada, as their first year of an articling student, or perhaps even a summer student, and they're looking to create the career of their dreams and charting their own course. This is something we want them to think about early, right? What would you recommend? What can they do from day one?

SPEAKER_03 1:41

Day one is a wonderful place to start. Yesterday was even better. I would say from all of my years of working with law firms and lawyers and some of the younger junior lawyers as well, you need to understand the power structure and the governance structure of the organization in which you are entering, whether it's in-house or a private practicing law firm, because you need to know the players. The quicker you can understand kind of who are the players, then you want to make those people your new best friends. You want to approach them for mentoring. You want to be a volunteer for committees that they may be chairperson of. You want to completely invest yourself, number one, in learning your craft as quickly as possible, whatever that area of legal specialty may be. Secondarily, volunteering to be involved where you know that you're going to be seen, be see and be seen by those people in power positions. That is one of the fastest tracks for advancement.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

That's great advice. And when you talk about the governance structure, I just want to break that out a little bit for folks who are not familiar with governance. That's where the decisions are made. That's where leadership is driven within a firm. So who's the managing partner? Who are the practice group leaders? Who are the directors of the various uh departments, even HR and business development and marketing? Who are those people and how can you get to know them better? And one way to do that, one simple way, I know many firms I've worked with, you know, there's tickets to events, and often we need feet seat fillers. I was gonna say feet fillers, seat fillers. And quite often, unfortunately, it's or fortunately, it's students and brand new associates that are asked at the last minute. But if you find a managing partners going there or senior partners going there, you get an opportunity to sit beside them or meet some of their clients, right? I mean, there's some simple things to do, but I also really liked your opportunity, your example of starting on committees and putting your hand up and and and being courageous, right?

SPEAKER_03 3:57

Well, yes, exactly. So in a lot of my teaching over all these years, I always say to our clients, um, whether they're day one or you know they're in their 50th year, you will get out of this area of a career profession as much as you invest into it. It is up to you. You must take control and you must take responsibility to chart your own course. That is something that I say very frequently because the opportunities are there. But and this I say this specifically to women because I statistically we know women do not um advance as quickly as men because oftentimes because they don't feel like they're on the inside network or the inside track, quote the old boys' club. But if I could say one thing only to women lawyers at any stage of their career, you must ask and you must crash the party. You show up, whether or not you were invited or not. And if you never ask to be on the committee or to go to the tables, you know, the events or the games or the client events, the answer will always be no. And that's where really the girls separate themselves from the women and the ones that are going to advance, is that you have to feel like you belong in that room. And oftentimes, particularly early on, you may not feel like you belong in the room, but the more times that you face that fear of potentially, you know, rejection or fear of failure or feel of fear of not sure what people are, you know, you're stepping out of your role, or you're, you know, this may not be my place. You got to put all that down. You got to shut that down. And you just got to push forward, find that grit within yourself to show up and to make yourself a part of it. Because at the very least, whomever is the higher power in that situation will earn respect for you.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

Oh, and I know you're a huge supporter of women. I know Johanna and I are as well, and I take every opportunity to support women because you're quite right. There are special barriers, exceptional barriers for women that the guys and the men don't necessarily um have to have to clear. But I love that idea to quiet that internal voice, to know and have confidence that every time you step into that room or ask permission to step into the room, as would a fellow too, uh, every time you step into that room and show up, it's going to get a little bit easier. And I have a little trick, and you I know you have a million tricks up your sleeve too, Kimberly. One trick, whether you're a man or a woman, is to buddy up, right? You don't always have to show up alone, buddy up with another student, buddy up with a junior associate, buddy up with a senior associate, buddy up with a partner that you've come to know recently. You don't have to go into that room figuratively or literally alone. You can find a buddy. And that's actually a really nice way of getting closer to people and building internal relationships too, right?

SPEAKER_03 7:01

Absolutely. Relationships are internally, you know, you when when young lawyers enter into private practice, everyone, as far as all lawyers, are either referral sources or their chains of command. And what I said earlier about understanding early on, the governance structure, who are the players, who are the power brokers, and the fastest you can learn that, the better, because then you can strategize and make decisions accordingly. Um, but but the relationships that if you invest yourself in is to be to find a mentor, to find an ally, to find a sponsor, to find other peer-to-peer allies, you know, the more relationships that you can cultivate. I mean, we've we've seen it over decades that that is how you're gonna shoot, you know, be and be that rising star and gonna be recognized because there are plenty of your colleagues who will not, you know, so you take advantage of the the knowledge or the inspiration that you get from programs like this that say, you know, you really need to assert yourself and to be to see and to be seen by the people who will make a tremendous difference in your legal career.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

Uh that's so that's so well put, Kimberly. And I and I think it starts with paying attention to the opportunities around you, right? Like you've got to have your nose in files, you've got to have your nose in research, and you've got to learn the practice of law. But every time you pick up your chin and look around and you're in a room or moving around the firm figure figuratively or literally, to pay attention to the opportunities that may be present for you, then having the courage, as you said earlier, about quieting that voice. I don't belong. Who am I to ask? Who do I ask? What's going to happen with rejection? All those difficulties that we all go through. All it's not reserved for a junior person. We all have at times gone through those voices to quiet the voices and then to really show up, right? When you're there to again be highly alert to what's going on, really use those emotional intelligence qualities that we all have and sometimes have to waken and pay attention to what's happening and observing, you know, one of the things I love to suggest is to observe others who do it really well, regardless of their level of seniority, because there's so much learning in watching others work a room, have a client conversation, open up, you know, a prospective client conversation, um, handle a difficult situation. If you're trapped with somebody, how do I get, how do I get away and move on to visiting with other people and networking with other people? How where's that exit? So really observing others can have tremendous learning opportunities.

SPEAKER_03 9:47

Very powerful. I mean, there's so, you know, I I've I've coached and worked with young lawyers a lot over these years. So oftentimes they'll say, you know, I did, I was so clueless, I didn't know, I didn't know. I didn't, I'm like, and it's okay not to know. And that's why I go back immediately to the governance structure and understanding, you know, who does know and who will befriend you. Because I can promise you, on the on the flip side, for the senior folks who the folks who are senior to the to the junior attorneys, they it is impressive as heck to see younger lawyers take the initiative to try to figure out, to invest themselves that are actually interested. Because many lawyers, you know, it's just starting out, it takes them five or six years to kind of get their C legs. And then by that point, you can totally, you know, jet past them. Um if that's your, you know, if that's your objective, and you get some of those prime committee assignments, and you have to find out what the committee, what, what committees are the high power committees that you want to be on, like the hiring committee or the compensation committee or you know, whatever it may be in your firm. But um, so not only are you are you as a junior attorney looking to advance and create the career of your dreams, but it's it's also having other people see you um as you know, and and envisioning you being one of them because you are a part of the club, you know, when you're when you become a lawyer, you're part of that club, but you have to kind of take the initiation to make yourself, you know, part of the inner circle of that club.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

100%. And and I think also what you're talking about here is the visibility matters. And if you show up, you're gonna be visible and and available for opportunities that you may not otherwise have. I also wanted to get your thoughts on how do you make it safe enough to volunteer for those committees and those opportunities? And what about expressing vulnerability in those opportunities? Say, I don't, I've never been on a committee like this, I've never participated in this kind of event before. I'm happy to be directed or coached or whatever. I'm gonna do my best, but I'm I'm happy to have direction. What are your thoughts on that, Kimley?

SPEAKER_03 12:03

Everyone has been in that position. There's, I mean, it's not novel, it's not um, you know, every single person, whether you're a lawyer or a professional, you've had to start at some point. So if you're dealing with people who have any level of empathy whatsoever, they're gonna empathize with, you know, how junior you are, because they themselves were that junior at one point. There are occasions that I've witnessed and observed where, you know, say the chairperson is not particularly empathetic because they have gotten hardened to the weights of the legal world or the legal services world. It's part of the value that you can learn, because I believe everything is a gift and an opportunity if you perceive it in that in that way. So perhaps you go to the chairperson of a committee and say, I, you know, I'm interested in serving, and you get re you know, deflected, rejected, whatever. And you you go back and ask yourself, what's the gift and opportunity? Well, that person who rejected you, and if it maybe were the callous or dismissive or condescending or whatever that may be, because they're that exists. Well, what's the gift and opportunity? Well, now you know, like I I think about the great Dr. Maya Angelo. And people show you who they are, believe them the first time. So that's a priceless gift that that person has just given you. They have given you an insight into who they are. So pivot, do a quick pivot, find someone else on a committee, that committee or another committee, because again, I don't think I've ever been aware of someone who's actually volunteering and being rejected from an effort because it's usually the other way around. You can't fill the seats at a table, you don't have enough people on the committee, you know, you don't have enough doers. Um, so you know, it it is it is recognizing where you are on the ladder, um, asserting yourself whether or not you feel confident, but you're willing. You're willing to learn, you're willing to be led and coached. Um, and I don't know many people that are going to reject that. I mean, there's so much that you can learn by looking up the ladder, is what we say, that others, you know, you want to aspire to look and observe and perhaps emulate those folks who you feel like once you get a lay of the land, who are doing what maybe you aspire to do five years, 10 years from now.

SPEAKER_02 14:35

And that that partner who, as you call it, rejected you. There's two lessons in that. And I and I subscribe to your whole notion of pivot. I think that's really important to find you got to find your people inside a firm. So pivot. Don't pick yourself up and pivot. But it's also, I think, a really great lesson for how we want to show up for other people when we become that senior, to take that experience, right? And to become more compassionate than how you were dealt with in that moment so that you don't show up in the same way for other people when you're working with staff members or other lawyers or what have you, as you as you march up in seniority yourself. So I think those are really, really great lessons. So part of what we're talking about here is really building that internal network internally. And I don't think we can overstate initially how important, if not essential and critical that internal network is. Um, do you want to talk about how to why that's so important on day one, Kimberly?

SPEAKER_03 15:37

Absolutely. So the internal network, I mean, when you enter into private practice, uh, there is a whole hierarchy. It is a flat, generally a flat organizational structure, but there's still a hierarchy within that. Because these are the people that you're gonna work with day to day. For example, if you're a junior attorney and you have a tech issue and you've got a litigation deadline, you want to have those tech people be your best friends. So they will come to bat for you when you need them. Same thing for every other, quote, non-legal specific service area, marketing, accounting, um, HR, um, food, food catering, the food service. I mean, you want to make sure you get to know those folks and they get to know you well. Again, it goes back to visibility and the relationship building that has to happen because you're, you know, you're low on the pole, you're not gonna stay there if you take the steps that you know we're discussing here. But if you if you develop the personal brand and the relationships as a kind, hardworking, caring for others person, you're gonna stand out. You're you're gonna shine. And it's an opportunity to shine, and opportunities will come your way. You don't have to manufacture them, but you can just relax and be in your authentic self in building the relationships internally, because then you know, as you move along the line of um seniority and you start thinking externally and networking, um, then your internal relationships can help you feed that and help you grow a prosperous business.

SPEAKER_02 17:21

And here's a great example of that. When you start building those good habits internally, regardless of who you're dealing with, the managing partner, to the office services person, to the receptionist, as you said, food services, whoever you're dealing with, a couple of things on that. First of all, they're probably going to at some point save your bacon. They'll be in a position to help you when you are in need. And that's especially so for any assistant. Many assistants know much more about the law than the junior lawyer coming in and they will save your bacon and they will find mistakes and help you, as will many other staff members in a firm. But here's the other point of that that just occurred to me as you were talking about that. When you start working with external clients and you are communicating with their assistant and you're showing up in their offices and chatting with their receptionists and engaging with other members of their team, it's equally important to bring that same grace, respect, appreciation, genuine appreciation for everyone that you encounter in your professional and your personal life. So that you are showing up, you know, you touched on the personal brand, and I think that's part of it, right? Is showing up really authentic, kind, and respectful. And this isn't just soft skills that we want to encourage people to be good humans. Yes, of course we do. But those soft skills directly correlate with the economics of becoming a successful lawyer down the road.

SPEAKER_03 18:46

I couldn't, I couldn't endorse that concept greater because um I I've worked with many lawyers who were um working on client teams, that they did put their best foot forward, they took the time to be kind to the assistants and those that may be in subordinate positions. You know, I think that people underestimate the influence that the non-lawyers, if you want to call them that, the assistants and the team around the lawyer teams have. They have the ear of the lawyer teams. And I've worked with a lot of lawyers who have been hired right out of those law firms into the client companies. And so, you know, as like a little happy dance sometimes. If you want to have a life of no billable hours or fewer billable hours, and you know, it depends on what your aspiration is for your career. I mean, I've also seen, I'm sure you ladies have as well, people leave, they go to in-house and they come back, and then they maybe go into a governmental position and then they come back. So that's another massive reason to cultivate and foster strong internal relationships. So you have that um opportunity and option that you may ping-pong back and forth into a law firm multiple times over the course of your career if you have those relationships.

SPEAKER_02 20:13

And what you're talking about is building a network of long-term, sustainable, um, a tribe, a village, uh a community of people who know your personal brand, know you to be somebody who is friendly, accessible. We know that's another one of the keys, right? That somebody would feel comfortable saying, well, my neighbor, my cousin, my uncle, they need some legal services in whatever area. I'm sure you could phone, you know, so-and-so and have a quick chat. They're very easy to talk to, they're very friendly. Those kinds of conversations can quite often turn into referral work. So it's absolutely positioning yourself for those kinds of things. So we're talking a little bit now, Kimberly, about rainmaker uh habits, how to kind of how to generate, how to start cultivating those good habits to position yourself as a rainmaker. So we've talked a few about a few of them already. Are there more that come to mind as we're engaging in this?

SPEAKER_03 21:10

Of course, I I I included a lot of these in my book, um, The Rainmaker Roadmap, a step-by-step guide to building a prosperous business, and one that's just screaming in my head is developing the marketing mindset.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:24

Developing the marketing mindset and what that means is kind of playing off what you just said, Susan, and that is viewing everything as a gift and opportunity. You know, you may be sitting at your daughter's ballet lessons in the outer room with other parents, and maybe you just are totally engrossed in your phone. But if you were to engage in conversation, what you might think is trite or not trite, but if that that you make it known what you do for a living and how you help people, of course, that's the number one thing of your you know, 30 second commercial. Help X, Y, and Z do A, B, and C, having that rolling off the tip of your tongue from day one. Then if you you will refine that, it will evolve. And over time, you will develop that network. And so people remember you. You want them to remember you. And of course, there's all kinds of marketing, you know, whether you're active on social media and you connect with all these folks on Facebook or LinkedIn, whatever your social media platform of choice is. Um, but the develop understanding that what an opportunity looks like, because too many times I've worked with law firms and lawyers or lawyers that they think and they're trained to think very linearly in a linear fashion. But that's not the way relationships work, right? Relationships are not, you know, quid pro quo most of the time, A to B. I mean, it could be A to C to E and F and then back to B. And so you have to understand and accept what that looks like as a practical matter of you know speaking to everyone and understanding what you know what they they're about and making sure that they understand what you're about, no sales, just a statement of fact of how you help people, you know, in the legal services sector, and you can fill in the blanks on that.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

Exactly. And and I've done some training in this area, of course, as many of us have who've been in this business for a long time and who consult to law firms and lawyers. The biggest statement, I think, and you made a lot of great statements, but the one I'm going to pull out is being helpful. It's not sales, it's being helpful. Now, if you have a genuine interest, an authentic interest in building a relationship and being helpful, to your point, it's not A, B, C, D. It could be, you know, a very, you know, curly route to getting work. And it could be finding an electrician for their house because they can't find someone to help them. It could be finding a nanny for their child, it could be something so off topic. But when we share our treasured resources with others, we become memorable, we become a person known to be helpful, we become somebody who's genuine in their interest in supporting other people. And that, you know, we do it authentically, but that we can grow. And then you can circle back. How did that nanny work out? How and you start to build relationships that way in topics that are outside of law. I know there's a lot of women that do that really well, right? They're very good. And this is not to exclude the men, but women are especially good at conversations and finding connections. They're really gifted at that. Um, so I think that's what you mentioned is really, really helpful. Helpful.

SPEAKER_03 24:38

We we often refer to that as servant leadership. I'm reading a book on servant leadership, is to really have a servant's heart that you truly care. Um, if you don't truly care, um, you'll you'll do okay. But at the end of the day, your career and how you spend the next 50 years of your professional life will be so infinitely richer if you actually care.

SPEAKER_02 25:06

And and to take that into the practice of law and starting these habits of having, as you say, the helpful mindset and you have a genuine helpful mindset and you're curious by nature and how can you, and you're running that tape, how can I be helpful to this person? What do they need? Where can I actually step in and provide some relief and some help? If you take that into the practice of law, and when you're working on a file, you can then use that same mindset in anticipating needs and actually delivering on those needs before a client even asks for it. So, a very specific example is a client that's in litigation for the first time. They're going to be wondering what are the next steps? Where are we at? Is this unusual? How should I prepare? What is my bill looking like? You can anticipate a hundred questions when you start that mindset, and you will become exquisite at building relationships with clients in the context of a file.

SPEAKER_03 26:03

Absolutely. And not to mention, it can be very economically lucrative, where you're finding issues that maybe others aren't, because you've taken the time and invested yourself in the relationship. And perhaps because of that, it's not a transactional business-to-business only, but you get to know the client better. You know, when you take them out to whatever, whether it's a game or a museum or a meal or a coffee or whatever, and you actually get it. Because at the end, at the end of the day, I just heard um maybe Simon Sinek say this businesses are people, you know, clients are people. And when we look at it from that perspective, we're helping people, regardless of where they are in their lot in life or their business, or whatever it is. We all have that same human, human connection and you know, and um condition.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

I I can remember talking to a lot of litigators in particular. I've worked with both Celestia and litigators, of course, but litigators in particular, where I've said to them, your client right now isn't sleeping well. Your client right now is probably not eating well because they're facing trial in a few days, or they're in trial, or they're, you know, in this moment of stress, even though it's related to their business in a business context, it may not be a personal matter, but they are like get really into their mindset because they are not well typically, or they're certainly not at their best when they're in trial or preparing for trial, right? So really important to think of that mindset. And that and one of the things, one of the little tricks that I like to visualize is in a boardroom or in an office setting, often we are sitting across from somebody and serving them and meeting with them. And, you know, whether it's in discovery or meetings or what have you, we're on opposite for your client. Think about sitting on the same side and getting into that mindset of, as you say, Kimberly, getting really granular about concerning yourself with what's going on for them. Because I think when we, when our hearts and minds are there, other things will follow. And uh, and I think it's a really helpful mindset trick to be on the same side as them and be equally concerned about what's going on.

SPEAKER_03 28:18

I I completely agree. I mean, there's so much that there's so much growth and opportunity. Um, you know, people will be more vulnerable with you if they feel safe. Yeah. If they feel safe. And the only way that safe comes is with trust. And trust comes with time and spending time, investing the time, and really diving deep and letting the, you know, letting those folks know that it is safe. And maybe you as the attorney maybe are not feeling safe. And so, you know, there's a it's a fine line because you now are the advisor. Um, and that's I think one particular area where it can be um abundantly useful to observe your senior um attorneys, to see how they navigate through dicey waters. And you know, maybe they you know the backstory that the case isn't going to go well or the case doesn't look like it's gonna settle, or they maybe will go to litigation, but you can see how they can, you know, stare adversity or um the prospect of losing in the face and how they, you know, how they deal with that from a communications point with this with the client.

SPEAKER_02 29:29

Oh, I just love that. And you've kind of brought us full circle, Kimberly, in getting permission to be in that room to observe those opportunities so that when a junior lawyer attends those meetings, they probably hopefully know a bit of the backstory following that meeting with the client out of sight. They can ask that senior lawyer, boy, that looked uncomfortable. That felt stressful. What was going on for you in that moment, you know, to really have the inside scoop? I think that is fantastic. And of course, with the pandemic right now, it's been more difficult. I've heard stories about some juniors not getting the rich mentorship that they would normally get because it's virtual and they don't necessarily have that opportunity to kind of step into a private room and talk to the lawyer or the attorney after a meeting and do a debrief as they might normally, unless they're really intentional in that in a virtual environment. Um, but I think that's so very important what you just stated, and uh and for the junior lawyers and the students to really volunteer themselves to sit in on a meeting to get that permission to gain those learnings that you've just set out.

SPEAKER_03 30:37

It is. I mean, because you know, one of the practices that I've had in working with lawyers for so so so long is I always ask the question because I'm always curious, is you know, you went to law school, you're out of law school, you on your first day of into your new position, what did you physically feel like you were capable of doing? And almost without exception, in 30 years, I've received one of two answers from everyone that I've ever asked. Either nothing, I felt capable of doing nothing, or not much. And so it's really an opportunity, if you know you're starting at ground zero, as it were, um, to you're gonna get the most of your education, not from what you learned in law school. Not from what you learned in law school. It's gonna be inside the area of employment that you have, whether it's a law, a law firm or a company or even a government agency, whatever the employer is, and learning, observing, practicing, investing in those relationships. You've got to learn your craft right away, you know, on the job training, immediately, so you can be competent, you know. But competency is just the cost of admission to the practice of law.

SPEAKER_02 32:01

That's well stated. Love it. And I I couldn't agree with you more, as you say, about the learning. Probably 75% of the learning is going to come from your observations inside the firm from your senior people and your colleagues. So, one last question for you, Kimberly, as it relates to the importance of setting boundaries and the importance of time management, assignment acceptance, because it's like being on the wrong end of a water hose sometimes, right? So, what are your thoughts? What are your suggestions? How do they balance that? How do they make sure that they are okay, that they have time and energy for all of their um all of their assignments?

SPEAKER_03 32:42

There's no easy answer to that. And it there has a lot to do, in my experience, with the culture of the firm and how how they set boundaries. You know, most of the firms have a billable hour requirement. You break it down to what you need to do per day. Um, and then you have a practice group leader who supervises you. In my experience and working with numerous law firms, those practice group leaders were not leaders, they were figureheads. Um, more than dozens of times I've been told, I have no authority, it's the rainmakers who pull the shots here. So I would say number one, find your safe mama or papa bear that's gonna protect you because when you begin accepting assignments from more than one lawyer, I mean maybe you just work for one lawyer, but generally no. And so, and they start piling on all the assignments and you are, you know, kind of racket in your brain, how are you gonna make all this? Then you somebody needs to assist you, support you, setting boundaries and help you prioritize, you know, and it can be a little tricky because it's I mean, if if law firms are nothing, they're political. So, you know, you only you can only work so many hours a day, eight to nine hours a day, then we go backwards in our productivity, um, which has been shown by science. And so helping having someone to be a champion or ally with you, whether that's your practice group leader or a senior attorney within your practice area, to help you to prioritize and perhaps even go to, you know, the person that the last attorney who's given you assignment to help them understand that, you know, there there's an order, a pecking order here. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't work. But if you are in the know that you have a voice that, you know, because if you do all the things that we've just talked about for the last few minutes about relationship building, this is where you can pull in a chip, as we say, um, and have someone go to bat for you to maybe get you out of hot water with a you know highly influential power broker who's very demanding and wants an assignment tomorrow when you already have three more assignments for tomorrow. I mean, you cannot, you know, we we all know that the there's tremendous stress and burnout. Um, but I would say when you take the long view in your career, you take care of yourself first. You you think about that, you know, that air mask, that oxygen mask on the airplane, um, and taking care of yourself first. You cannot give from an empty cup. Um, what going through the early days of law practice is rigorous. You need to be very clear-eyed about that. But there is a point where it's unhealthy. And so you have to understand what and listen to your body and um and keeping true to yourself because you could walk out the door and go to the law firm down the street or go whatever. I mean, you know, you there are choices, you have choices. This is not the only game in town, generally speaking, but um always being respectful, always looking to, you know, be into that servant leadership position of wanting to help, but oh my goodness, I don't know how else I can add one more thing to my plate. Please help me prioritize this.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

And it's tough, right? I mean, because students want to do it all. And I we've all talked to students who are balancing a lot on broad shoulders, but it's tough and it's really hard for them to go and have those conversations. And I just want to acknowledge that. But as you say, if you're building relationships and you're paying attention to the power brokers within the firm, you're developing the papa bear and the mama bear. And I love that statement. And it may not just be in lawyers, you might find that person. I worked in my my very first, yeah, my very first law firm, the mama bear was the assistant to the managing partner who was the coordinator of all of the students and some of the junior lawyers. And she she had been with the firm for decades. And so she wielded a lot of influence within the firm. And she was a tremendous mama bear. And she took that job very seriously, and the lawyers did not cross her.

SPEAKER_03 36:47

So you have to find that. You have to find that for yourself.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

Yeah, you gotta find it, maybe more than one person too, right? It's the same as mentors. You might you might find more than one, and I and I think that's healthy to have more than one inside the firm and perhaps even outside the firm, too. But your your other important point among many is don't burn bridges, be respectful, because you don't want to, you've you've spent all this time and energy building relationships internally. If it's not working and you need to go across the street, do so with the least amount of damage. Do be very thoughtful. You want to preserve those relationships and preserve your reputation and do it as as best as you can, right?

SPEAKER_03 37:25

Absolutely. I mean, because half the firm, if you go to another firm, half of your original firm could end up in your second firm, you know, because it's always like a revolving door. And, you know, give and get giving to get is always a huge principle. You want to give in order to get and and with the care. Um, but there's no need to burn bridges. There's absolutely zero need. If you have pure intentions and you are purposeful in the relationships and the authenticity of that, you know, it could come down to I I just literally had a friend resign her position after 10 years at a very high-level position because you know, she's got an ailing father and there were other kind of underlying pressures. But, you know, you it's it's life. Life happens. We don't always like the way it happens. And you know, when you are, like I said, in pure intention and well-meaning, people see that you can't fake that, and that's that's part of the authenticity.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

That's so true. That's so true. And it's just not sustainable to not be authentic. It's just not sustainable. And on a very practical level, if you do end up moving firms, you are in a position for conflict work. So your firm number A, who uh who can't do the work, you want to be in a position to actually accept some of that work. So keep those relationships intact. Okay, Kimberly, any last burning. We there, if I had a list, we'd have a very long list of tips we just shared with students and junior lawyers. Any other burning? I know they can um we'll put a link to the book, right? The uh the Rainmaker Guide um that you wrote. We'll we'll put a link and we'll make sure people have access to uh to purchasing that and uh they can sit with a highlighter and post it notes and read it. Um any other burning tips? And that's maybe a difficult question to ask somebody who's got a million.

SPEAKER_03 39:20

I would say if you don't love it and if you're not having fun with it, get out of it. There's no shame in getting out of it, whether it's the law firm life, it could be different in a company. You could there's so many things and and paths of vocations and advocations that you can do with a law degree. A law degree will never ever be a liability, you know. So if you're not loving the life that presents itself in law firm life, don't try to make a square peg fit into a round hole. Be true to yourself and enjoy what you do. There's tough days and there's tough people, and there's a lot of tough things that go along with it. But if you're not truly feeling like this is feeding you or making your heart sing, or you know, bringing you joy, do something else.

SPEAKER_02 40:12

Love it. That's so well said. I I think people could listen to this podcast a few times during their career and do a check-in on how they're how they're doing and how they're showing up in this way. Kimberly, such a pleasure. It's so interesting. We're on the West Coast in Vancouver. You're in the East Coast, basically, yeah, in Philly. And uh how well we connect on these things. It's true for both coasts and everything in between. Um, and I just so appreciate you um sharing all these tips. And um, I hope that people do go and get the book. Um, we're gonna share your um all of your credentials and all of your um uh URLs and websites and so on um in the link. But thank you, Kimberly, so very much. It was just fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 40:57

So much fun. Thank you for the invitation. It's a pleasure. All right, we'll talk to you soon.

SPEAKER_02 41:02

Stay tuned for our lawyer launcher debrief. I could have talked to Kimberly for the rest of the day. Like I it's just she's just firing on all cylinders. She's full of energy and emotion and passion about what she does, yeah, that it's kind of infectious.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

Yeah, and just so much practical know-how. She's seen it all go down and she really wants to help people succeed.

SPEAKER_02 41:23

Yeah, she does. And I and there's a few things that I took out of that session, and one was finding the power structure in the firm, which I think is so very important. It's kind of natural to some of us, but I think when you're first starting, it's maybe not as natural and it might feel a bit prescribed.

SPEAKER_01 41:35

And what she said too about the leaders on paper aren't necessarily the true leaders, they can be figureheads. So sometimes it's going to take a little sleuthing to find out where the power really lies, and you might not be able to find out right away, but and you know, but you can ask and hopefully over time figure it out and align yourself with them.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

And I I love the idea of actually sitting beside those people in meetings and um, you know, getting getting to hear directly from what they're saying and looking, you know, sitting side by side with them, and also um volunteering on committees that they can be there that's meaningful to them. I think that's another important piece. So finding those remakers and finding the leaders really important and the internal um network, you know, really nurturing that internal network. I think we all appreciate that many anyone in a firm can be helpful to you and really save your bacon. We talked about saving your bacon. Yeah, make no mistake, staff can save your bacon as much as another lawyer can.

SPEAKER_01 42:26

Yeah, they know where all the you know all the secrets lie.

SPEAKER_02 42:30

I think it's got mistakes and save you from embarrassment too, right?

SPEAKER_01 42:33

Or choose not to. So or yeah, yeah, like definitely try to stay on everyone's good side. And then the servant's heart.

SPEAKER_02 42:40

Did you know that when she talked about the servant's heart?

SPEAKER_01 42:42

Yeah, I like the way she distinguished between sales and help. Like it can be awkward sometimes to feel like you're being salesy, but if you flip it in your mind and think, I'm providing a very much needed service and I'm here to help people, that can really help you um sort of talk to people about what it is you do and how you can help them in a way that feels more comfortable if you realize they need your help. They do, you know, they're in trouble often and really need uh need that guidance and help. So they do.

SPEAKER_02 43:07

And I and it, as you say, it's a I think you said it's a mindset. And I talk to my clients about that a lot. It's a mindset of being helpful. I think we can all get behind being helpful. Yeah, it's harder to get behind sales, but if we just turn it on its head a little bit and consider being helpful, yeah, it will naturally lead towards a sales you know outcome if there should be one.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

Yeah, but you talked about that sort of element of caring. Hopefully, you do care about your clients, it will make your career much more enjoyable. Um, it's not she said it's not necessary, but it just makes you know a life richer. And I think if you truly do care, you will see it that way.

SPEAKER_02 43:41

And fake it if you make it. Yeah, until you make it. I think that's fair, right? Until because you may not feel authentic so and know that it will come. But we I mean, I would encourage people to be genuine. And then you know, the ground zero that when she asked students and lawyers when you first started, how did you feel with the two things?

SPEAKER_01 43:56

You're either uh well, how capable did you feel? Because you're not All or not much, and that was like 100% of the people said one of those two things. So I think that will put students at ease when they feel like maybe they're the only one who's showing up and feeling what have I learned and how can I apply this? Yeah, some of those learnings will apply, of course, but when you hit the ground, the practical things you have to learn at the job, like a lot of jobs.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

So we do.

SPEAKER_01 44:17

So not to worry. Yeah, not to worry. Yeah, you'll get there. Deep breaths.