The Four Steps You Need to Recover from a Setback with Jayne Rossworn

How do you come back from a setback? Most of us have experienced a setback - at work, in sport or our personal life. How do you regain confidence and develop resiliency when you’ve been knocked off your path?  High achieving law students, and other new professionals, often have  unique challenges when expectations are not met.  

Jayne Rossworn is a Registered Clinical Counsellor with The Lawyer Mindset takes us through a four-step framework that will help you recover and rebuild your confidence. She also shares some personal examples of how she has bounced back herself.

Episode notes:

The Lawyer Mindset website: www.thelawyermindset.com

Jayne’s email: Jayne@lawyermindset.com.

Jayne’s Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayne-rossworn-892642b9/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:06

My next guest is Jane Rosworn. She's a clinical counselor with a fascinating background. She was an elite athlete. She was a solicitor, worked in-house, freelance, in private practice. She worked in the Career Services Center at Allard Law School and TRU. And now she has her master's in counseling and she is counseling lawyers and elite athletes and athletes, high performers in all things related to mindset of the high performer setbacks, building confidence. She also works on a whole host of other typical counseling-related matters that somebody would seek counseling for. And she's joining us to talk more specifically about how to recover from setbacks. She's got a four, uh, a four-step framework that she's going to take us through. And she has a lot of nuggets and a lot of tools. And I think that everyone should see this podcast and listen to this podcast in particular to prepare yourself for, you know, when a setback might occur, that you know you've got some tools and a framework that's going to help you move through it, that it is not necessarily life-changing, that it's going to pass. And uh and she offers some words of wisdom that I think are going to be really helpful. So I'm excited she's here to join us, and I look forward to sharing her wisdom with you. Enjoy. Welcome to the Lawyer Launcher Podcast. Hello, friends, I'm your host, Susan Van Dyke. If you're a law student or a new lawyer eager to launch a successful career, you're in the right place. Drawing on more than 25 years of experience, I'll demystify the business of law and help you understand just what it takes to succeed. We'll empower you, help build confidence, and reduce anxiety. Our experts will share tips and advice, and I can't wait for you to hear from them. Now, let's dive in. Elite sports law, because you were a practicing solicitor, in-house, freelance, and in private practice. And then you were in career services in law schools, Allard and TRU. And then you went off and did your master's overachiever, master's in counseling. So you are so unique with all of these different pieces that you bring. And you've spoken in your in your career services career. I know you said you've spoken to a hundreds of students. So you really understand the student mindset. So how did that all come together?

SPEAKER_01 2:51

Oh, um, well, first of all, Susan, thanks so much for having me on the podcast. I'm so honored to be here. Of course. Um, and um, like you said, I've yeah, worked with hundreds of law students. So I love any opportunity to be able to connect with law students again and and what you're doing through Lawyer Launcher is just so inspiring. So thank you. Um yeah, to answer your question, uh yeah, it's it's been a long and winding road in a lot of ways, for sure. Um but you know, I think sort of when when I think about um, you know, my career and kind of the way it's gone and how it relates specifically to what we're talking about today, like sort of rebuilding confidence after setbacks. And I think about so much of my path that has all kind of come together, like you say, all these things that I kind of thought were separate and have all kind of come together really nicely. So um, I definitely have had a pretty um non-conventional career, um, both as a lawyer and as an athlete. And so I kind of did things backwards, right? Like most athletes start their elite career young. Um, and then they're either like doing their undergrads simultaneously or they go back to school after. I got a law degree and then became an elite athlete. So it was kind of like a different way of doing things. But I was able to sort of get to a place in my legal career where, yeah, I could transition to into a freelance type role that gave me the flexibility to be able to pursue this opportunity that had come up for me with where I was at in my place in life. And and so, yeah, so that was really meaningful to me to be able to do that. Um at the same time, yeah, there was a lot of challenges I was dealing with in terms of, yeah, being a high-performing athlete, balancing a legal career with that. Um, and so I started seeing a clinical counselor at the time who specialized in working with athletes and other high-performing individuals. And um the tools that he gave me were so helpful and I was so inspired. And during that period, too, I um I ended up getting injured, which set me back quite a bit in my training, right before like a really important race that I had. And I remember feeling just so devastated around that whole experience. And he helped walk me through and he helped help me really focus on the process of who I wanted to be. And uh I think through those tools, I was able to kind of rebuild the confidence, go to that race, and ended up actually like winning this Canada Cup race, which like took me by surprise. But um, so all that that whole experience really inspired me to want to get into counseling. And so when the position came up at TRU Faculty of Law to cover a MAT leaf doing career career counseling there, I was like, oh, amazing, what a cool opportunity to use my law background and and um pursue this love of counseling. Um, so I was able to move into that and and and then of course I ended up um taking a position at Allard Law as well. So I was able to spend a few years, yeah, working with many law students and helping them navigate their careers, which was such an awesome experience. And then, yeah, which then led me to pursuing my master's in counseling. So I know it's a bit of a long-winded um explanation, but yeah, that's kind of how it all came about.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

No, it's so interesting. It's like you were meant to be in this space at this time, and you've brought all these different experiences. And and what's kind of interesting is that you you thought you were having a setback or a potential setback in sport, and yet it was that experience of going to a counselor and maybe having a bit of a wow moment, like, oh my gosh, I didn't realize I needed this and how helpful it was in the tools, and that activated perhaps something in you, right? And then you pursued that in and pulling all the pieces together. So I'm fascinated. So if you take us back to your experience in the career services, either in TRU or LR, which you said you'd you know spoken to hundreds of students. Is there anything in particular that stops the student from coming and looking for help? Because I think that is probably one of the first steps, right? If somebody doesn't ask for help, then they are suffering on their own. They're you know, they're they're spiraling potentially and they're not reaching for help because really it starts with asking for help, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

So can you talk to us a little bit about what what might and there may be a lot of different things, there's maybe not not any one thing that's interferes with somebody asking for help. But did you see any patterns there or anything that's helpful?

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Totally. And yeah, like you say, it's um it could be really individual. Um, and so yeah, so we're talking more about sort of patterns that that I've seen. Um, and I love this question because I mean, what you know, I might end up being a bit of a broken record in this conversation, but the the um, you know, the ability to reach out for support, to seek social support and to foster that is such an important part of your career progression and your your mental wellness, right? Um, but the one thing, you know, to go back to the question, the one thing I really did notice and I still notice now with with high performers in general, like I work, I work with athletes as well in my counseling practice. Um, but yeah, lawyers, athletes, a lot of high performers, law students um fall into this category too. Um, reaching out for help can feel kind of scary, right? It feels a bit vulnerable. Um, it it may be perceived as a sign of weakness sometimes. A lot of the time we feel like, oh, I gotta, I can just tough this out. I can do this myself. I can figure out, you know, how to get a job, whatever. I don't, I don't, um, I don't have to have other people to help. Um and, you know, I I do see some of some of that perception changing, but I think there's a lot, um, you know, some of the those barriers around the stigma of reaching out for help are coming down, which is great to see.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

It is, it is great. And and it I you just reminded me, I've worked with a few lawyers in very senior, very, very senior lawyers in the last sort of, I don't know, five to ten years of their career. And as I've come to know them, I I remember saying to a couple of them, you are such a good communicator and you're such a good leader. And it's quite unique in the way in which you are talking about your own strengths and challenges. Where does that come from? And very often I've seen a bit of a pattern lately, and it's just coincidental, I'm sure, that they have a spouse who's a counselor or somebody close to them who's actually a counselor. So they have those resources uh within reach and they've used their skills and use, I'm sure, um, their learnings in their profession. And it shows I can I can usually spot someone who's well, not always, but often there's a thread there where somebody's really open and vulnerable. They're excellent communicators, they have tools that they work through, and it's such a delight. And when you go back to the comment you made about the high performers, it may very well be those students who aced high school, aced their undergrad, they're rocketing along, they're celebrated for their success, they're winning awards or you know, all of that. And then they get to law school and it's different. Maybe it's tougher, maybe it's, you know, not what they expected, then they haven't yet had to ask for help. Would that be a common scenario?

SPEAKER_01 10:58

Absolutely. Because if you've got to the point where you're at law school, yeah, you've been you've been performing really well to this point, right? Um, and so yeah, it can even just being in the law school environment um can be a big change and it can, you know, bring up all sorts of setbacks in itself, right? And it's interesting too, you say that because a lot of the time, you know, um, in counseling, when we're helping people work through something, a lot of the time, you know, a common thing we might ask is like, well, what's a similar experience in the past? And how have how have you been able to overcome that challenge in the past? When have you dealt with a setback before? And I notice a lot of people early in their career, they can't think of a time, right? They yeah, they they can't think of a really significant setback they've had to overcome. So sometimes, like, yeah, it's a really new experience. And so setbacks can hit especially hard for law students and articling students and new lawyers, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:03

So and maybe because it's new, because they've been a high performer, they think something, you know, I shouldn't be asking for help. There's something wrong, there's something I gotta muscle through, I've gotta just dig in and find my grit and just carry on. But actually, what you're saying is the very opposite. Part of being disciplined is is using resources around you. And and I know we're gonna talk during this interview about a lot of the different resources that are available to students, including yourself, of course. Um, but that's that would be new. And I think what we're trying to do in this podcast, and certainly in this session with you, is to make sure students are alive to the idea that when, because wait, let me finish my thought, when they do um encounter a setback, that they don't hesitate, that they pivot right away and they look for the help that they need. And if it's not quite the right counselor to keep seeking who is the right person for them. Um, but I did want to say, I think it's fair to say, and I would love your comments on this too, Jean. In somebody's career, I there must be a statistic somewhere that that most people have had a major setback. Most people have had, you know, I know lawyers who have had significant, how would I express this, issues in trial, literally in trial, horrific experiences in trial. And it's been very difficult for them to get back. I know people like that. I know people who, you know, in the workplace have had significant setbacks, whether they've been terminated or where they've had a trauma, traumatizing experience. I know I have in my workplaces. I've had lots of different variety of various levels of trauma in my workplaces because it's tough. Law is a tough workplace, it's the very reason why I'm having these conversations. Would you agree with that?

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Absolutely. Yeah, and I also don't know if I have any stats on that as well. But yeah, I'd be willing to bet that anybody who is successful in their career has dealt with setbacks. Yeah. Absolutely. Right. There's actually a really good quote by Michael Jordan that I feel really encapsulates as well, where he sort of lists all his failures, right? All the missed shots, yes, all the times he he, you know, was expected to take the game-winning shot and missed it, you know, all the games he lost, all this. And he talks about how he failed over and over and over again. And that is why he succeeded.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

Yes, yes, 100%. And that we should almost, and I hate to use the term invite failure, but I think we should continue to challenge ourselves and find those edges. And when we do find the edges and we go beyond the edges and we experience a failure, a failure in quotation marks, that it is an opportunity for growth and learning. And I know that sounds like a greeting card, but I think I just I know personally it's so true that there's so much learning and failure. And I would just really want everyone to take risks and take some, you know, some reasonable challenges and risks in their careers so that they continue to grow. And I think that's where we start to see setbacks.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Yeah, exactly. Because yeah, the more um risks that we take, you know, the more uh resiliency wees, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

So Jane, how do you how do you define the difference between a setback and a disappointment though?

SPEAKER_01 15:21

Yeah, good question.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

Those could be different, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Yeah, yeah. So um, so a disappointment, you know, yeah, we all we all deal with them regularly. Um, you know, maybe yeah, you get a a grade on a law school exam, you're just not super stoked about. Um, you know, maybe, yeah, your, you know, your your friend had a cancel on you. It's like, you know, maybe you get some some negative feedback from someone who's kind of grumpy that day, right? These things, yeah, we deal with these, these disappointments pretty often. And they're usually the kind of thing that we can sort of integrate into how we see the world already, you know, like, okay, yeah, you know, everyone gets bad grades every now and then, right? It doesn't affect sort of my trajectory as a law student. But a setback is really more about you know that um trajectory that we see for our lives. And it and a set a setback sort of stalls or reverses some of the progress that you make on that. And I think, you know, in law, we we might feel setbacks particularly strongly because you know, there's sort of there's sort of um, you know, we sort of consider uh a series of steps that we're supposed to take in this career, right? It was, you know, you get your undergrad, you go to law school, you you know, you get good grades, you do OCIs if you if you choose to do that, you know, you go through the formal recruitment process, you article, you get hired back. We sort of step onto like what I call a career escalator, right? And then upward you go.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

So if something happens, you know, something throws a curveball in that, and all of a sudden you're you're feel like you're going backwards down the escalator, can be really disorienting, right? So it's more than just a than just a disappointment.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

And they can be unique, right? These um setbacks for new lawyers and articling students, because I I think as you said earlier, they may never have had experienced a setback before. So it's new and probably a little alarming.

unknown 17:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

Probably alarming.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

Yeah, exactly. And I think especially, um, you know, maybe not especially, but but particularly. So in in a law school context where you've um, you know, you're you're in a setting with your peers too. And so, you know, I'm thinking, you know, right now, um, yeah, I believe it's this week that in-firm interviews are happening for um the formal summer recruit. Um, and you know, what I saw from my time working in law schools is yeah, not everyone gets a job through that process. And, you know, when you kind of think you kind of go to law school thinking, oh, I'm gonna work in one of the big firms, I'm gonna like go through this process. I've been, you know, I've got good grades to this point. I've been successful in the things that I've done. And, you know, I mean, the job search process can be really random in a lot of ways. And if you're not successful in that, I've seen some students be, yeah, really disoriented, really, um, it's been really devastating, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:29

Well, and I think that there's a lack of control. I think you can study hard. You there's a degree of control with law school, right? I can meet my deadlines, I can study hard, I can, I can pursue those good grades, I can have my extracurricular activities, but getting those positions, there's a huge level of no control. And it's really, and it doesn't always make sense. And there's only so many positions, and not everyone's gonna get a position, and that can be so devastating. Um, I know you have a framework, and I wanted one of the things that I was really excited about is you have a framework that you suggest, a four-step framework for recovering from setbacks. And I think any I I would hope that every law student and no lawyer for that matter, or other professionals listen to this podcast so that they know there's a framework, they can follow your framework, and it gives them confidence to know that they will be resilient when and if they have a setback, right? So, should we should we start with the first step?

SPEAKER_01 19:28

Sure. Yeah. The first stage is about processing the loss. Okay. And I think, you know, part of processing the loss is even recognizing that a loss has occurred, right? And I think this kind of goes back to what you were talking about earlier in terms of you know, law students and and and you know, um high performers having a hard time reaching out for help, right? Because they're not even acknowledging the loss that's occurred here, right? Because, you know, like like we're talking about, sort of you we build these ideas about the way our life is supposed to go. We have these assumptions about who we are in the world and what our career is gonna look like, and so a setback, you know, it might totally change that trajectory for us. And so there's a a loss of that assumptive world that we that we held. Right. And and that's that's significant, right? And I think a lot of people um invalidate their emotional reaction to that.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

Interesting. So in processing the loss, they've got to acknowledge there was a loss. They have to kind of accept that there was a loss, that something occurred. Yeah, and it didn't meet their expectations, and to acknowledge that um there is that that there's some um internal upset occurring because of that loss, right? So they need to really own it and accept it and process it. Okay, so that's the first step. And that sounds like without the first step, it's hard to go for it. So that first step is really right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

It'd like to say, like acknowledging, really, like noticing your thoughts and naming your thoughts for what they are, right? Like a lot of times they're just thoughts, right? I think that they're gonna be there.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

Oh, sorry, could that come from somebody external? Could it come from a family member to help you accept like that? When you hear somebody say to you, wow, that really must have been super disappointing. And I I see that you're really upset and I see that you're not back to your old self again. And or what there may be some messages externally that will help you acknowledge that you're going through a loss. So if you're not doing it internally, maybe you accept the external cues. Would that be true?

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Yeah. So um yes, that can be really helpful if if you're getting that from your social support. Right. Um and yeah, because sometimes, yeah, it and I find especially With um high performing people, they're gonna be pretty harsh on themselves. Right. And so sometimes we need to hear the message from someone else to really for it to sink in. And so, you know, what I'm gonna say, it's not, it's um seeking social support is not a separate stage of the framework because it's a thread that brings all of the stages together.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

So yeah, you know, again, yeah, it's finding that social support throughout, the whole process is so so valuable.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Yes, okay. So that's the first step is processing the loss. So once we process the loss, we acknowledge we're grieving, we're having a difficult time. What is the next step?

SPEAKER_01 22:43

Yeah, so the next step is about getting unstuck, right? Because a lot of the time, um, yeah, we we start ruminating. Yeah, right. Um, and we ruminate, you know, for a variety of reasons. But you know, I find lawyers especially are are pretty good ruminators, right? We're we're trained to be analytical. Um and so so yeah, we want to problem solve, we want to think things through, we want to like get to the bottom of things, right? But like you said, a lot of the time at happened. What's happened is outside of our control, and we get stuck on ruminating about things that we really can't do anything about.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

So overthinking. So you're overthinking, you're inside your own. I have clients that do that on other all kinds of other things, overthinking. And I'm I know I say to them all the time, not related to this, Jane, but other things. Are you overthinking? Do you are you pretty certain we need to take this next step? Let's move forward and take the next step.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

So I think just even reminding someone you might be overthinking could be helpful.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Totally. And so um, yeah, so again, yeah, getting help from someone like you to point out the overthinking and pointing it out to yourself, noticing when it's happening, that's actually a really big, uh, a really helpful way to separate yourself from your thoughts a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

Oh, right.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

Right. So even just saying to yourself, oh, I'm overthinking right now, it helped it helps you kind of take control over your thoughts rather than your thoughts taking control of you. Right. And then other helpful ways to get unstuck is to just take some perspective here, right? If you had a colleague that was going through the same thing or a classmate or something, you know, what advice would you give to them? What would you tell them? Right. Um, and think about, okay, yeah, how how do I want to look back on this five years from now? Right. So temporal perspective and like sort of, yeah, perspective from someone else's perspective is um really helpful. And that's where, you know, again, like the self-compassion piece really comes in here as well.

SPEAKER_00 24:41

And maybe going back to the earlier comment you made, if they have had an earlier setback in their life, something unrelated to what's happening now, they could draw on that as well and bring that forward. You know, how what how did I how did I manage that? And I I think it's important to reflect and go, I recovered from that, I'm okay, I am moving forward. And that whole well-known phrase, this too shall pass, even though it's again sounds like another greeting card. It's so true though. This will pass. It sucks right now. Totally okay to say this really sucks right now.

unknown 25:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

And um, but I'll get through it and I have tools and resources. So so getting unstuck is the second step, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:17

Right. And so, and what you've just said is such a great segue into the third step, which is about learning and growing. Okay. And so that's where again, yeah, we we use that self-compassion piece to be an effective coach to yourself, right? And an effective coach is compassionate, right? They're they're not gonna be harsh on you and be like, ah, you did all this wrong and all this. It's about okay, reflecting um on what what you did do well in this situation. You know, sometimes when you experience a setback, it's because you put yourself out there in some way. You took a risk, right? And there's a lot to be celebrated in that, right? Um, and then of course, yeah, thinking about, yeah, what could I have done better here, right? Right. And then what have I, what have I learned about myself, um, about yeah, about the law, about my careers. You know, there's so many um learnings you can take from an experience. And like you say, part of that is learning that, yeah, it's temporary.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

Yes, too. Yes, for sure. And you talked Jean earlier about the social aspect of the recovery and the framework. So talking to people, um, being vulnerable with somebody you trust who is going to be that compassionate person. Do you also recommend different forms of self-expression journaling or some way of actually working through your thoughts and feelings? Um, because some people might feel more comfortable doing that too.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Yeah, it exactly. And I think um definitely want to honor that everyone's got a different way of working through these things. Um, and certainly like, yeah, journaling can be really helpful at all stages here.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

Right. So certainly in the processing stage, sometimes you just gotta like just just write everything out, right? Just get the words from here to the paper.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Um, and then, you know, at this stage of the learning growth, yeah, it can be really helpful to have very specific um journaling about okay, what did I do well? You know, what would I do differently next time? What am I learning from this situation? And then, you know, I would add to that too, you know, on the topic of sort of okay, learning that this is not temporary, right? What a really important concept here is is the idea of optimism, right? And and that optimism is something we can learn. And and we do so by by reframing those ideas that that those stories we tell ourselves after a setback, right? That like, yeah, this is going to last forever. And it means I'm a failure in all areas of my life. And, you know, like these kinds, if we can reframe those things, we can be more optimistic. And the research shows that helps us recover more quickly from setbacks.

SPEAKER_00 28:03

I don't know if I'm jumping to the next step, but it seems to me that we have this tape that runs in our head. And the tape might be, um, I didn't deserve that summer position, or I'm not imposter syndrome shows up. I shouldn't be in law school. What was I thinking? And, you know, whatever are all those negative messages that many of us have in our head, even as senior experienced people, by the way, this is not reserved for juniors uh or new professionals in any way, shape, or form. So to acknowledge the tape that's running in your head and to replace the tape with something that celebrates and is compassionate and celebrates what you tried and you put yourself out there and look at the courage that I showed. I put myself on the field, I was uncertain, and there's no possible way I could have been 100% prepared, but I did it anyway. And look at the learning, like we're changing the tape. Yeah, it sounds it might sound silly and it might sound, you know, too prescribed, but I know for myself that's been really helpful. And it's even if it's trickery on the brain by changing the tape and what we tell each tell ourselves becomes true and really meaningful.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Exactly. And I think you know, you summed it up really well. This is what it's all about is recognizing the story that we're telling ourselves about it, and then rewriting that story into something that's more helpful for us.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

Yes, 100%. 100%.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

And that does lead into, yeah, the the fourth stage, which is about moving forward and rewriting your next chapter.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

So what would you so what would be some of the tools in there? So now, okay, so you've processed the loss, you're you're now getting unstuck, which is really important. Um, you're stopping to kind of learn and grow. So you're kind of almost sinking into this state that you're in. You're writing, you're talking to friends, you're thinking about it, you're hopefully being compassionate with yourself and acknowledging the risk or the, you know, putting yourself out there and it wasn't, you didn't get the result that you wanted. Now you're ready to pivot to that next chapter. What are what how do you know you're, I mean, are we ever finished learning and growing? Is there an overlap? I don't think so. Yeah. I know I'm certainly not done. So that next step then that write the next chapter, I guess it it's intuitive when we're ready to write that next chapter and and enter into that fourth phase.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

Exactly. And and you know, and that's why, you know, like I said, these these stages can be a bit arbitrary, right? Yeah. And so, you know, some things might be happening simultaneously, or you know, it happens organically. But basically, it's you know, about taking that your what you've um learned um and taking that growth and turning it into action, right? And and turning it into action that's within your control and is um aligned with your values and who you want to be in the world, right? So, you know, a phrase that I find helpful when I think about this is okay, usually yeah, usually a setback changes your sense of reality a bit, right? Changes your career trajectory or other assumptions you might have held. So, given this new reality now, what do you want your life to stand for?

SPEAKER_00 31:16

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

Yeah, and I find, you know, really doing a deep dive into exploring your values can be so grounding here because you know, I kind of I kind of think about, you know, the you know, we talked about how disorienting it can be to experience a setback, right? And you're just kind of lost, right? There's no path, there's there's no navigation, right? But your values kind of give you that compass. So at least you can know kind of what direction you want to go in. Do you have an example for that, Jane?

SPEAKER_00 31:51

Is there something you need to share?

SPEAKER_01 31:54

Yeah, totally. Um, so I mean, I'm thinking the first example that I love that uh is it comes to mind is from the sport world, because I was working with an athlete. Just recently, this came up for me, and I just love this so much because this athlete, she yeah, she she um sustained an injury um in her season and yeah, of course, was heartbroken that she couldn't do that race season. But then ended up like, you know, she was like, okay, what are my values here? Right. Um and one of them was curiosity and just like learning about different things. And so she ended up taking up a different discipline in her sport, and now that's her main one, right? And and it like led to this whole like you know, new opportunity for her that she didn't even see before. Or you know, something more law related. Um, I have another client who um unfortunately was laid off from from his position. Um but you know, realized, okay, why am why am I even in-law in the first place? It's because I want to help others, right? I really enjoy helping others. And, you know, yeah, he wasn't able to get a job right away, but he started doing some volunteer work just to just to live out that value. Um and that, you know, led to opportunities in the nonprofit world that was actually a lot more aligned with the type of work he wanted to do, anyways.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 33:23

So it's you know, it's interesting, you know, when I think about setbacks in my like even just in preparing for this interview, I was kind of thinking about okay, what setbacks have I had in my own life? And when I look back on them, like in hindsight, I'm like, I I they don't seem like setbacks. Right. They were at the time, it was devastating. But when I look back now, I'm like, wow, if I hadn't have had that setback, I I wouldn't be where I am today. Right. And I wouldn't have had all the things that have come together.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

Yes, and that just comes with life experience and wisdom and and having having experienced that journey to get to where you are now, you look back and you go, well, if not for that, then I wouldn't have made these decisions and I wouldn't be where I am now. And now I'm, and that's part of, and that's part of the journey of your career. It's not, you know, everything builds on the next experience, whether they're good experiences or bad experiences. And and I know I've said to others, you know, when you have a challenging workplace and you're going through that experience, there's a reason why you're there. And perhaps one of the reasons is you know that if ever you have an opportunity to influence a workplace, it's going to look different and perhaps more accommodating, more um more um productive for your colleagues than what you've experienced. Right. So sometimes those lessons are what helps us move forward and and and create different experiences for others.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

Oh, totally. Right. Like, yeah, we can we can really um again use our values to be a model for other people.

SPEAKER_02 34:56

Yes, right.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

And and to show, like, yeah, the the potential that can that can happen. Um so yeah, um I mean with with all of the stuff, you know, so of course recovering from setbacks is is really resiliency, is what we're talking about, and fostering resiliency. And um and you know, so with that too, I want to sort of bring in the idea of like flexibility and adaptability because resiliency is about bouncing back. That's sort of like the basic definition of it. So you think about a ball, you drop it, it bounces back up. Sometimes it bounces from your hand. Yeah, and sometimes it goes higher, or sometimes it goes in a totally different direction, right? That we didn't uh anticipate at all. And so a big part of the recovery process is being flexible to different options. And so I think you know, everyone's gonna have their own values that they bring into this process, but having a sense of open-mindedness about yeah, where that could take you next is so helpful.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

Well, I loved your earlier comment about curiosity. So I love resilience, being flexible, maybe bringing in curiosity to see what's next and where's that ball going? And should you pursue and take a look at something that maybe didn't wasn't in your universe and in your perspective until then? So that can be interesting. So, how do you then? So we've gone through the four steps. I know they overlap and they can come at different stages. So process the loss, get unstuck, learn and grow, write the next chapter. And as you're writing the next chapter, where does confidence? I know you're talking about resilience, maybe there's similar resilience and confidence. How do you then start to rebuild your confidence so that you're ready to take that next step?

SPEAKER_01 36:42

Yeah, totally. Um it's tough because setbacks can can really um have a big impact on your confidence.

SPEAKER_02 36:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

Right, for sure. Um, you know, like I definitely um seen law students who, you know, like, you know, if we go back to the same example of not getting a job through OCIs, yeah, they, you know, it it really affects the confidence in, oh, whether I can get a job at all now, and I don't know how to find a job that's not through the formal process, if you know, if that's like a new skill that they need to build, you know, um, or like, you know, say a new associate makes a drafting error, they might then think, oh, I'm I have, you know, I made this one error, and so I'm just like, I can't do anything law related now. Right? You might kind of generalize that.

unknown 37:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

So you can definitely have a big impact. And so I think, you know, yeah, and in part of the moving forward process is is understanding, understanding how confidence and resiliency work together. And so confidence is kind of about like your belief or your trust in yourself to be able to do a specific task or meet a specific goal. Um, whereas, yeah, resilience, like we like we mentioned, is more about sort of like, you know, being able to bounce back and thrive um uh following setbacks.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

But you know, the thing is is that the these two concepts kind of build upon each other. So when you can rebuild your confidence, you put yourself in a position where you're more willing to take more risks, um, which then gives you more opportunity to build resiliency because the more risks you take, the more you realize you can get through tough things. You can you can quote fail and still be okay, right? And you and so by you know, taking more risks, you know, getting through setbacks, you build resiliency overall, which helps you be more confident in the things that you do.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

So, in building confidence, then would you go back and do a lot of things that you know you're good at a lot and and restabilize yourself by putting yourself and maybe it's volunteer work. I love that example too. Doing something that you know you're good at and that others acknowledge that you're good at.

SPEAKER_02 39:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:03

Right. Just and and to hear your social network tell you, believe them when they tell you you're good at certain things and to lean into that, right? I think that could help those rebuild confidence. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:15

I think um, yeah, it's supporting uh supporting yourself and surrounding yourself with people who support you as well is so important. And yeah, like I say, kind of going back to the basics a little bit, right? Um because when yeah, when our confidence has been shattered by a setback, it can feel really overwhelming to just like jump into something again. And when we feel overwhelmed, the the best way to deal with that is just like bite-sized steps to get back into it.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

Right. Because I guess there's a lot of fear. Oh my gosh, I got stung doing that. That felt awful. That set me back by, you know, period of time, whatever that is for is different for different people. For some people, it can be a long period of time. And climbing and scratching your way back up is long and painful and difficult. And of course, the one piece, you know, we we have to mention is to ask for help, ask for counseling help, you know, look for those resources. And I suppose it's different for everyone. Somebody might be stuck for a week and be fed up and you know, be looking, but could take somebody longer to recognize that they actually need the help and they are worthy of the help, right, Jane? Like I think everyone, well, I know everyone's worthy of the help. And there are resources through through you, um, but there's also resources through um uh lawyer assistance program. There's resources through there was a third one that we had noted um through certainly benefits packages if you're an artist student or summer student.

SPEAKER_01 40:46

Yeah, and I think um I think lawyers have access to TELUS Health now.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

Tell us health, that was the other one. Right. And maybe through the law school too.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

Yeah, absolutely. Like a lot of law schools have embedded counselors in their in their programs now. Um so that I mean, that's one thing that's great about being in the legal profession, uh, is there are a lot of law-specific supports available for people.

SPEAKER_00 41:11

Yes, yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

But that's such a good reminder that, yeah, you know, sometimes you gotta um tell yourself or remind yourself, yes, I'm I'm worthy of giving it all out. And it's not a sign of weakness, right? It's actually a professional strength to be able to reach out.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

Well, I know so many lawyers who, other than having family and and friends and close people, loved ones in their in their circle, but reaching out, it's becoming, I think you said it earlier, Gene, it's becoming more common. And uh I just think it's fantastic because I think the the road to recovery is probably a little bit shorter. And you probably have an opportunity to recognize your resilience when you come out of that uh that that phase in your in your career journey to look back. I think there's a lot of value to look back and go, I took that risk, maybe I would have done things differently, but I'm now okay. And if I have another setback, and again, this this comes with with wisdom and experience. If I have another setback, I know I'm gonna be okay. Um I do want to mention, and and I say this, I've said this publicly before, it's so important that you uh, if you're around somebody who's had a setback, to not hesitate to reach out to them.

unknown 42:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:20

I know a lot of people who have been terminated or have had significant setbacks and they haven't had the support that they had hoped for. So I always tell people if you know somebody who's lost their job, go reach out. They can choose whether they engage or not, but always reach out so they have that support network.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

Yeah, I think um, yeah, that's such a good point, Susan, because I think, you know, a lot of the time when someone experiences a setback, you know, we don't know what to say to them. We worry about saying the wrong thing or and so we avoid, right? When, yeah, those people really, yeah, they need support, right? And so it's so human to just yeah, reach out to say, hey, you know, I'm here if you want it. You don't have to respond, but I'm here if you need it.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

I've done that many times. I'm thinking of you. I hope you're okay. No need to reply. Just want to connect, um, just send out a message. And if you want to go for a walk, if you want to hop on a call, and and a lot of people have taken me up on it. And we hop on a Zoom and we either get into things or not. It's up to them where they and I'm not a counselor, but I am I I hope to always um show up as a really um supportive colleague of of anyone who needs who needs that. So I think that's really important, just to feel like you're not alone.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

Exactly. I think that's the biggest part, exactly, because it can be a very lonely experience.

SPEAKER_00 43:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 43:43

Right. To so to know someone is there is oh, such a big part of the healing process.

SPEAKER_00 43:49

Yes. Yes. Students have every opportunity to uh to recover and to get back on their feet, reach out for the resources that they need and the help that they need so that. They can get back on track as quickly as what feels comfortable for them. And I think knowing that probably every successful person would say that they've had a setback of some form or another. I think that's probably true. Yeah, I see you nodding very quickly at that.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

Yes. And I and I think, you know, in a in a way, you know, yeah, you just mentioned those lawyers on LinkedIn sharing their stories. You know, I mean, I would never um uh say that someone has to share their story or anything like that, but I but I think it's so um helpful to be um that role model, right? And for people who are more senior in the legal profession to show those vulnerabilities. And you know, that that's mentorship, yeah, really. Yes, you know, 100%. Um yeah, like I I have um a client who yeah is is a partner at the firm she works at. And you know, yeah, was always worried about, oh, you know, you know, mentoring younger associates or whatever and worrying about, oh, if I make a mistake or something, I'm like, no, I embrace that. Right. If they can see that you're human, that is like the the most helpful mentorship you can provide.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

Yes, yes, a hundred percent. And and hopefully everyone's in a firm where when and if you do make a mistake, you are supported and you aren't shamed. And it's a learning opportunity and a growth opportunity. And I think that should be true for anyone. And even I remember sitting in a I was in a firm and there was a very senior lawyer who was, I'm gonna say a year from retirement, who was on a call with um an institutional client, a big client that anyone would be so happy to have. And they were unpacking an issue. And this senior lawyer said to his client, Oh my God, did I make a mistake in my advice to you? He completely outed himself on this call of very senior people, a very important institutional client that had been a client of his and their firms for a decade or more. And he just outed himself, oh my God, did I make a mistake? And the client fortunately quickly said, No, no, no, it wasn't you, it was something else. And he was quickly reassured that truly it wasn't him. And he told me the story later, and I thought, that's so interesting that you're sharing that with me, and that you outed yourself in front of a client, which would require a lot of courage.

SPEAKER_01 46:21

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 46:22

In my in my experience with the clients that I work with. And I thought that was really interesting. Yes, he was a year or two from retirement, but I think he would have rolled that way anyway early in his career. And I think that's what endears him to his clients, too, right? To be human and to be open and vulnerable.

unknown 46:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:38

So, Jane, people can contact you for um for your for your help in working with the lawyer mindset. I know um you have some really fabulous services that are specific to athletes, specific to lawyers. I know you counsel in all different other areas of counseling. Um, so you're kind of a just a great person to talk to and to reach out to if somebody is struggling with a setback or anything else, right? Maybe there's elite sport athletes in our midst here who Well, there yeah, there's a lot of overlap between sport and law for sure.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

Like, I mean, just in terms of yeah, the the high performing mindset, but also, yeah, a lot of people in law are athletes too. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:21

So they can come and reach you how through the lawyer mindset website. They should go and have a look actually and and have Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01 47:27

And you know, and there's a bunch of free resources on the Lawyer Mindset website too that can be like Dina's created some awesome courses. Um, there's also like a free, you know, we've been talking about values a lot here today. There's a free values exploration guide there. So I'd encourage anyone to go check that out for sure. But yeah, you can find me through the website there. Um, you can email me at J A Y-N at thelowyermindset.com. You can find me on LinkedIn. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

Lots of different ways. And we'll put those, those, all those points in the show notes below so that people can find them if they're looking on YouTube. Um and you reference Bina, and that's Bina Stock, who has been on this podcast as well. And it was, she's the founder of the Lawyer Mindset, and you get to work with her, aren't you lucky?

SPEAKER_01 48:14

Oh, I'm so grateful to be able to work with her. She's a just yeah, wonderful to work with such a good mentor for me.

SPEAKER_00 48:21

Well, you're both a wealth of resources, and I know anybody'd be lucky to work with you. And I would say, you know, it's important that people find who they work best with. So, you know, try different counselors and go out and just make sure you get the help that you need. Jean, this has been really interesting and there's been so much value in the four-step framework. Thank you for that and all the other tools that you shared. And I encourage people to reach out and connect with you, um, even if they don't have something urgent, but it'd be good for them to connect with you anyway, right?

SPEAKER_01 48:48

Absolutely. Thanks so much, Susan. This is a topic I could talk about forever. So I feel like we touched on a few of the important pieces. But um, yeah, absolutely. Like if anyone wants to reach out, I'd love to continue the conversation. And thank you, Susan, so much for having me on the show. Wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 49:06

My pleasure, Jane. Thanks again.

SPEAKER_01 49:08

Okay, thanks.

SPEAKER_00 49:09

Stay tuned for a lawyer launcher debrief. Well, I really enjoyed that conversation with Jane. She's clearly good at what she does, and being a high performer herself, she really knows what it feels like to have a setback and to be in a place where she has to rebuild her own confidence. So she knows of what she speaks. She's done it herself. She's sought canceling herself as an elite athlete, as she as she told us. So I think she is very well equipped to help uh law students and lawyers and senior people and everybody in between to help whatever it is that you need to move forward in your career. Some of the takeaways that I had from this interesting chat was there's a good chance you're going to have a setback in your career at some point, um, to look at the four, the four-step framework for a career setback. It was process the loss, get unstuck, learn and grow, and write the next chapter. And at any stage and any point of that, to reach out and get help. You've got the lawyer mindset to as a website to with lots of resources to consider. You've got Jane herself to reach out to and get some help through Jane. You've got TELUS Health, which I think is a free resource. The lawyers assistance program is another free resource. And likely there is counseling at your law school that's another free resource. And just know that you're worthy of the support that you need. Don't let a setback get you stuck for any longer than necessary. Work through your process and uh and reach up for help and stay connected to your social networks. So, with that, I wish you a courageous career. Go forward and uh take some educated risks, take some chances, and uh and keep moving forward. Thanks for joining me.